Leather Cuirass Lorica Musculata, I used to think no way but

[Tarbicus]

no evidence, literary or otherwise, that Roman officers used metal cuirasses in battle. Please let us know your source for this.

You need to look at more frescoes and mosaics. There are clearly iron and bronze (or gilded with silver and gold) musculatae portrayed in such examples (at Santa Maria Maggiore in Rome, for example).

AntonivsMarivsCongianocvs\\n[quote]just as there isn’t any archeological evidence for Roman Shields to have the lightening and thunderbolt design… there is only sculpture. Is the lightening and thunderbolt design also “still a fantasyâ€

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

well I for one do not believe in the leather story all together.

the shoulder pieces? maybe metal,maybe even pressed and glued linen...

the torso itself?

definetely iron or bronze.

btw enoug musculata remains have been found, just not published and not being shown on the internet.

i go by the idea that it was further developed (in metal!) from earlier graeco/etrusco corinthian musculata, from which era we also have METAL evidence.

M.VIB.M.

[AntonivsMarivsCongianocvs]

Are you suggesting the Roman musculata was always leather?

Short answer…no.

I do agree with the vast majority of Travis Lee Clarks conclusions though.

I am personally of the opinion that when we see the ornate cuirasses of the Emperors, such as those referenced on Travis’s site, we are seeing a flexible garment.

That is not to say other materials did not exist.

Also, some of the arguments seem to stem from semantics, if we change the word “armorâ€

[Magnus]

"I am personally of the opinion that when we see the ornate cuirasses of the Emperors, such as those referenced on Travis’s site, we are seeing a flexible garment. "

But why bother? Didn't anyone read my post darnit! lol

Seriuosly, why make something like that when you can accomplish the same thing wearing clothing. (ie looking good and important)

I still think that leather which flexes like it does in the sculpture would start to show signs of creasing and cracking, which lets be honest...looks like crap. AND if it was painted...you can bet it's going to crack and chip. That alone makes the leather cuirass impractical.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

- Know what scares the crap out of me? Stupid people are out-breeding the smart ones.

nuff said..........

:twisted:

M.VIB.M.

[AntonivsMarivsCongianocvs]

Magnus said

But why bother?

Honestly Magnus I can only offer opinions as to why but then we’d debate our opinions.

The fact is the sculptures do appear to show a stiffened but flexible garment. Whenever the wearer is slightly cantered or bent the garment always bends with them; metal does not bend like that.

The officer’s knot always appears to pull on the garment and the garment usually appears to have a leather lace up at least one side, with a tied knot at the top under the arm pit. There is no aesthetic reason for the artist to add a leather lace with a bow tie under the arm pit. Many show leather hinges as pointed out by Travis, not metal hinges. We never see the pins on Roman Cuirasses worn by the Emperors holding the front and back together. Unlike the metal Greek cuirasses which have pins the Romans are laced.

Can you answer why that is?

H.J.Vrielink said

- Know what scares the crap out of me? Stupid people are out-breeding the smart ones.
nuff said..........
:twisted:

Yeah but, I'm a pretty bright boy, I can go to the bathroom by myself and everything! :wink:

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

HAHAHAHAHA thats the only reaction i wanted and needed Antonivs!!!!!

it shows you can look further than the outside!

BTW i am not really sure about the lacing and hinging story since also in the metal armour which was hinged with a long, or a few pins, you find lace holes for leather laces or straps.....

M.VIB.M.

[Tarbicus]

The fact is the sculptures do appear to show a stiffened but flexible garment. Whenever the wearer is slightly cantered or bent the garment always bends with them; metal does not bend like that.

But an effective leather armour wouldn't bend, as Dan Howard has often pointed out. I think you also ignored my comment that you can't trust a paid artist to truthfully represent a cuirass if it conflicts with the pose of the actual subject, the wearer.

The officer’s knot always appears to pull on the garment and the garment usually appears to have a leather lace up at least one side, with a tied knot at the top under the arm pit. There is no aesthetic reason for the artist to add a leather lace with a bow tie under the arm pit. Many show leather hinges as pointed out by Travis, not metal hinges.

Segs are held together by leather strips, they articulate X times more than a musculata, and they take a while to break.

I have a leather musculata (shock) and when tied by a Knot of Hercules it doesn't pull on the garment, it just helps keep the halves in place. The same would apply to a metal cuirass. Soooooo, if the halves are tied with leather thong, what better than a little extra guarantee?

[Theodosius the Great]

btw enoug musculata remains have been found, just not published and not being shown on the internet.

"Remains" ? You mean from Roman times ?

Could you possibly be referring to [EDITED] that is purported to be from a Roman musculata ?

If so, I've brought up this specimen many times in the past but, afaik, no one has authenticated its age because no analysis has been conducted. ? x It currently lies in a private collection.


~Theo

SORRY THEO_ THERE'S A RULE ABOUT POSTING LINKS TO, IMAGES FROM, OR DIRECTLY MENTIONING THE SITE YOU DID- Matt

[Magnus]

Honestly Magnus I can only offer opinions as to why but then we’d debate our opinions.

That's true...such discussions are usually better in person, and it's hard to drink beer through a monitor.

The fact is the sculptures do appear to show a stiffened but flexible garment. Whenever the wearer is slightly cantered or bent the garment always bends with them; metal does not bend like that.

No doubt...I know exactly what you are saying...but to me this can be easily explained by the ideal represented in the sculptures of the perfect body. In my mind, it's not an actual representation of an individual, rather a god-like personification. And not just emperors, but high ranking officers as well. So the bendy-armour to me is simply an artistic convention showing off a perfect body, but at the same time demonstrating the ornate nature of musculata worn by that class. Since it's art, it can kill two birds with one stone.

And consider this...opinion or not but you know what cracked, creased and stressed leather looks like. If it is indeed leather...why didn't the artist show those creases in the statuary? So much other detail is often added, why not depict that as well?

Also, wearing leather, regardless of how ornate or even painted it is, the amount of time and skill in it's crafting wouldn't compare to one made of metal. So if it's status and social standing you are after, which are you going to wear?

The officer’s knot always appears to pull on the garment and the garment usually appears to have a leather lace up at least one side, with a tied knot at the top under the arm pit. There is no aesthetic reason for the artist to add a leather lace with a bow tie under the arm pit. Many show leather hinges as pointed out by Travis, not metal hinges. We never see the pins on Roman Cuirasses worn by the Emperors holding the front and back together. Unlike the metal Greek cuirasses which have pins the Romans are laced.

Can you answer why that is?

Better than Jim's answer? Not really...but non-metalic materias have been used to tie body armour together for centuries...from teh afore mentioned segmentata, to using silk lace to tie japanese cuirasses together.

[Magnus]

Actually, come to think of it...looking at the pics on Travis's site, there is absolutely no distortion on the area of the "cuirass" where the person is bending at all!!!

Tells me right away it's purely artistic interpretation of something we probably will never know exactly. BUT, having said that, there isn't enough evidence there since even leather would show some kind of distortion, to say that type of statuary is showing anything but some idealized artistic body.

I notice how the sash seems to pull in on the leather...especially in this photo:

http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica ... 4det4a.jpg

BUT...as I mentioned previously...a solid piece of leather would show distortions since it's being contracted...yet even given the remarkable detail, the leather is completely smooth all around the sash.

Given that...maybe it's made of spandex? :lol:

As for the "braid" pattern...that to me doesn't say anything...and doesn't really reflect on the material of the cuirass anyway. Rather it's a mystery of the fastening between the back and front plates. Also, if it's stitching...that would make it rather dificult to get in and out of if it's a cuirass. :wink:

I also don't agree with Travis's interpretation of the leather hinges. To me there is simply not enough evidence from an artistic rendition of a cuirass (especially the prima porta one) to conclusively say how it was attached on the side.

I think the bends in the armour and contours are entirely artistic licence...given that, who is to say the artisan's representation of anything that is actually functional is accurate? They don't seem to have a very good track record in other areas (helmets for example) of portraying items accurately when compared with actual finds from military sites and such.

I hope my post made sense...it's 4:24 am and I'm on my lunch and just about finished my last night shift at work lmao!

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Spandex for defs!! or even better Kevlar! or mylar......! :lol:

Indeed that fragment is one of the fragments i am speaking about, and it certainly is NOT a patera or cooking pot!

M.VIB.M.

[Matt Lukes]

This is starting to sound like the TVNICA color debate... who's with me? :lol:

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

If you are like me, against Leather armour, I am with you, and i will make sure my Gens also will vote for you!

might be nice to make a poll out of this!!!!

though i do not know how to...

Leather musculata:

Utter Nonsense!!!!

Believer

sceptic

dunno, rather look at the tele than read a book......

:lol:

M.VIB.M.

[Tarbicus]

I notice how the sash seems to pull in on the leather...especially in this photo:

http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica ... 4det4a.jpg

Nothing's being pulled; it's the hips narrowing up into the waist, and then curving out again to the ribs. This is anatomically shaped armour. If you mean the folds at the front of the armour, that's the Knot of Hercules where the sash is knotted, loops downwards returns back up, and tucks under itself nearer to the sides of the armour.