Historic Scutum experience

[Hibernicus]

Back on the glue issue: is hide glue and bone glue (at least I hope "beenderlijm" translates to that) the same thing?

Bone glue is better used for rigid applications... furniture.. dovetail joints, veneers etc

Hide glues tend to do better where some elasticity is in order... such as with a scutum

[marsvigilia]

Back on the glue issue: is hide glue and bone glue (at least I hope "beenderlijm" translates to that) the same thing? :roll:

From my research, bone glue is generally not as strong. Hide glue does come in different strengths. At the extreme end it will bond to glass.

[Hibernicus]

Bone glue is strong differently than standard hide glue

There are aso variant strengths/weaknesses within hide glue variants.

Some prefer to use rabbit hide glue for veneer work.

Fish glue also has other preferred uses.

But for gluing up scutums hide glue (horse hide usually) is the better choice)

[Servius Rustius Noricus]

Magnus
At places like Micheals, they sell sheets of the stuff fairly cheap.
I just melt them down and pour them in my own mould for future use.

[avlvs arrivs diogenes]

Avete,
I'm glad Tony mentioned the issue of conflicting reports about milk paint versus encaustic. I've seen a few reenactors mention the usage of milk paints on shields. I have never seen any of the original archaological reports or secondary literature mentioning the usage of milk paints on shields. I would be grateful if someone could tell me where this notion derived from.

The original archaeological report from Dura Europos (M. Rostovtzeff, 1936) states unequivocally that the paint used was encaustic, and that this corresponds with previously known Hellenistic traditions of painting shields with encaustic paint.

If there was a later report that reversed this judgment, I'd love to know. So far, it just seems like reenactor lore, since milk paint was commonly used at the time for other applications.

Any thoughts?

Valete,
Dio

[marsvigilia]

According to Holger Ratsdorf of HReplikate, the Dura Europas shields and others were painted with casein, a milk derivative.

This is from Matt Amt's site.

[Marcus Julius]

We use hide glue...

The scutum that linen covered but waxed faired much better

I am seriously tempted to let a hide covered scutum get rained on or wet on down just to see what would happen and then see if we could repress it into shape if it warps or starts to come apart.

I wonder if having the appropriate leather cover wrapped around it would have made a difference?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

but then, what about when the legion is formed up for battle, and there is a stand off? No scutum cover would mean wet scutum if it was raining!?
Or even a long slogging match?
Sorry for the fly in the ointment, just would be a real possibility in my mind.

[marsvigilia]

but then, what about when the legion is formed up for battle, and there is a stand off? No scutum cover would mean wet scutum if it was raining!?
Or even a long slogging match?
Sorry for the fly in the ointment, just would be a real possibility in my mind.

On the other hand, if the shields were waterproof against rain why would they have even bothered with covers? Just extra weight and hassle.

[caiusbeerquitius]

http://larp.com/legioxx/scutum.html wrote:
According to Holger Ratsdorf of HReplikate, the Dura Europas shields and others were painted with casein, a milk derivative.

This is from Matt Amt's site.

This is wrong, actually. The Dura shields are painted in encaustic. Some mummy portraits from Egypt are in tempera, but most of them encaustic. Oil is also possible, I think. Casein paint seems to have been used in northern and western Europe mainly, evidence is there from the bog finds (Illerup) and in celtic context (?).

[Hibernicus]

Quickie search:

http://www.hp.uab.edu/image_archive/ule/ulel.html

Site claims that casein and encaustic were both used in Fayun mummy portraits.

From what I've read milk paint is likely the least expensive and simplest of several "period" forms of painting.

- milk protein as the fixative
- hide glue as the fixative
- wax as the fixative

[avlvs arrivs diogenes]

So, it seems that the main proponent of the theory that the Dura shield and others being painted with casein based paints, is Holger Ratsdorf. So, my question is: what are his sources? What is the nature of his analysis and does he give any reason why it is different from Rostovtzeff's? Obviously, both casein paints and encaustics were in use at that time, but which of these was the preferred medium for the extant shield fragments? I would be most inclined to go with the original archaeological reports of Rostovtzeff, barring any verifiable analysis performed by Mr. Ratsdorf.

Arik

[Hibernicus]

And I have wondered how difficult (or easy) it might be to determine the difference between milk paint sealed and layered with wax and actual encaustic style painting...

[scythius]

Hibi -

The encaustic has the pigment in the wax, so I'd think it would be pretty easy to tell the difference.

Remind me to show you the encaustic piece I've been working on.

[Tarbicus]

The portraits from Er-Rubayat, Antinoopolis and other sites were painted in encaustic or tempera, and even both, when on wood. All of the portraits from Hawara were encaustic, except one which was wax, egg and oil (don't ask me if there's a difference between 'wax' and 'encaustic' in this case).
Ancient Faces, Mummy Portraits from Roman Egypt, by Susan Walker and Morris Bierbrier.

From Fayum, everything was mostly encaustic but sometimes in tempera.
The Mysterious Fayum Portraits, by Euphrosyne Doxiadis.

Interesting is that linen was usually painted in tempera, and a couple of times in encaustic.

In the latter book there is a chapter on technique and methods. Underpainted in animal glue containing pigment (distemper). The method is to work from dark to light, using hot wax. There is also cold wax used (Punic wax).

Both books are excellent.