Scientist compares Roman and Japanese swords with new method

[Sean Manning]

Its off topic, but I'm not sure that an unarmoured sword fight between skillful opponents would end in mutual wounds the way that a knife fight wou;d. Fiore won five longsword duels against fencing masters, with only an arming doublet and leather gloves for protection, without being injured (although he also urges students never to fight unarmoured if they can help it!) A double kill suggests that the one who struck first used bad technique.

[Magnus]

Japanese history from post-unification wars where the combat was unarmored had a 33% death rate for both opponents in a duel. That's crappy odds.

[Iagoba]

33% hock:

That includes every duel, or every duel with a death? I don´t think that every duel must end with a kill.

Most European duels up to XIX century were stopped after both parts had shown enough bravery, or just shoot their pistols tying not to kill the opponent. There is a long way between being offended by a man and killing him...

Going back to the topic of "Europeans saw their swords as a tool, and the Japanese as a part of their soul"...

Have you ever tried to read the Spanish books on fencing of the Renaissance?

They have got a whole compendium of "Philosophy, Science and Fencing" almost as mystical as any other oriental martial art. Carranza claimed that you must know the wisdom of Seneca, Euclid and much others to understand the human soul and body, and only by knowing them you can be successful in combat. No Zen, and that was not the style used in the streets (which was more "empirical") but for them the sword was never saw as a tool, and it wasn't´t comparable to any other weapon.

And yes, I think the Japanese weapons are over estimated. Some of them were of a outstanding quality (and were paid accordingly), as happened with their European counterparts. And having some centuries more of Middle Age and isolation to improve the techniques is a relative advantage. In the same time, the Europeans invented the revolver, and used them widely.

Perhaps, Japanese culture wanted the perfection, instead of evolution?

PS:I had the pleasure of handling some authentic Japanese swords, (sadly not dated, nor researched :? ) and I still prefer the variety of the European swords on the same centuries.

[Magnus]

I believe it was a 1 in 3 chance of dying in any duel. Iaido, is the practice of a first strike attack based on a quick-draw of a sword. Not all duels began with swords out.

Japanese weaponry didn't evolve much in terms of variety due to their isolation...c'est la vie I suppose.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Its a double thing... Gunpowder was known since the first contacts with China and during several wars with Korea.

However it was deemed unsatisfactory untill in 1868 the country was opened to the west fully.

This didnt mean the Japanese Samurai did not see the advantage of gunpowder and guns during the sengoku period. However due to the closing of the nation to the west for 200 years beginning with the reign of the Tokugawa, except of course with the Netherlands, little information and renewals reached the shores of the Empire.

Guns were in the bushido tradition considered to be cowardly and unskilled. the same goes for cannon. The Bow (Yumi) however was a weapon which needed skill, and was therefore highly revered. Throughout the 400 years following the Tokugawa expulsion of foreigners the Japanese sword was metallurgically perfected, as well some of the lesser brave weapons like the guns available on the Islands.

During the Shimabara and later Satsuma rebellion the Shogun even chartered Dutch ships to bombard various positions of the enemy.

So, Weapons and gunpowder were not seen as mere trinkets, but the code of bushido which was the leading philosophy of the samurai did not account for these weapons to be linked to bravery, honour and self sacrifice.

The main weapon of the samurai was fire. the use of arsen as a weapon was a widespread one. It is something a lot of people tend to forget or overlook.

The want for perfection which made the Japanese sword such a formidable weapon was later displayed in the wartime inventions during the second world war, and even later is still visible in the striving to perfection in every part of Japanese present-day culture.

M.VIB.M.

[Wander]

A Japanese swordfight is very different from the long, drawn-out clash of blades so beloved by Hollywood, and is actually much more comparable to the proverbial Old West gunfight. It would very likely involve a period of sizing up the opponent's position, range, and estimated skill, and seeking the proper mindset. Like a gunfight, a draw by either participant would result in a flurry of blinding speed, and at the end one -- or both -- would be dead.

The reason a double kill was so common in Japanese fighting was due to both the styles of sword usage and the philosophy behind it. The samurai philosophy (as I'm sure you all know) was not to fear death in battle -- it was something, not to be actively sought, but at least expected. The preferred killing stroke was the shomen uchi, a straight downward cut from jodan (holding the sword above the head), and they were trained to seek the opportunity to execute this stroke.

When two samurai both went for this stroke at the same time, the usual result was the simultaneous kill -- common enough that it was given its own name, aiki uchi.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

quite nice modern thingie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMbuge_2ttw

Musashi duel on Ganryu island

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaKjpr7nDA4

[Narukami]

Good videos Marcus.

I would also submit the following as an example of just how such a duel might transpire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYE3DJ2IltY

(Ignore the audio)

There are also two great duels in his film Sanjuro (but I have yet to find good clips worth showing). You probably know them Marcus. One is a beautiful piece of choreography where Mifune defeats a dozen opponents in one fluid dance of death and then the film's final duel which is short and melancholy in a way the Japanese do so well.

:wink:

Narukami

[Jeroen Pelgrom]

nice video's. I recognize a lot of techniques from our medieval masters.

A Japanese swordfight is very different from the long, drawn-out clash of blades so beloved by Hollywood

True, same for European swordfights. The continues bashing against the others sword looks great on a screen but is totaly pointless in a real fight. The mentioning of the "posta di falcone" (Vom Tag in German) pose in "A kingdom of heaven" movie was, to my knowledge", the first time a historical name was used in a hollywood movie for a longsword pose.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Practical BattoJutsu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6b5c9BIqHQ

and some slowmotion Kendo ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4SHWXQBVL4

the speed of kendo , as well as it technique, though highly stylised is comparable to the attack speed the Samurai used in their duels.

Well Narukami kun, heres some Yojimbo for you!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t31HJGEbw2Q&

M.VIB.M.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Bloody Youtube.... :roll:
Always miss half the story offshore....

[Narukami]

Marcus,

Yes that fight from Yojimbo is another good one. Very reminiscent of the Star Wars Cantina scene with all the bragging ("We're wanted men. I have the death sentence on twelve systems.") As Lucas was heavily influenced by Kurosawa the borrowing is obvious.

I will keep looking for the one fight from Sanjuro (the sequel to Yojimbo) it is really a well choreographed dance.

Thanks for the videos -- always amusing and informative.

:wink:

Narukami

[Magnus]

Great videos...I have to go and watch my Kurosawa flicks again now!

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Yeah i once got a Korean/chinese collector's box with all of his greatest films haha hilarious english subtitling, thank god i speak a little Japanese still....



M.VIB.M