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Pasta - did the Romans have it?
#16
No mention of noodle recipe in De re coquinaria?

Wikipedia (the pasta entry) says that "The earliest known records of noodles in Europe are found on Etruscan tomb decorations from around 400 BC", but ominously fails to give sources. Or is there archaeological evidence?
Stefan (Literary references to the discussed topics are always appreciated.)
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#17
The spaetzle thing made me wonder a bit. I mean if i think about it it is a quite simple thing to make (even better if you have the right "machine" for it lol). Anyway I was thinking, in the area where I was born Spaetzle is THE traditional foodthingy of the region, the province of Raetia. I mean this might be quite farfetched BUT it's the same area where many names even for villages or mountains are still in an old latin form and the germanic dialect spoken is a very old form not making many of the changes the language made in the rest of the german speaking areas (which is great if you want to read old english texts btw lol) AND where some people nearby still speak an old provincial dialect known as raeto-roman. So maybe it is because this arrea hasn't changed as much as others that this kind of food is so popular?
RESTITVTOR LIBERTATIS ET ROMANAE RELIGIONIS

DEDITICIVS MINERVAE ET MVSARVM

[Micha F.]
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#18
Yes we had pasta. The basic dish was " Pasta-Fagioli" and we also had tomatoes although there is a wide opinion that Romans didn't yet incorporate them into daily diet.

I have a great cousin in Campo Basso in Abruzzi who said that it was originally a very simple dish developed over a period of time. The idea was to provide gladiatorial and certain work force classes with a high nutrient high energy food that could be made in bulk quickly and easily with simple ingredients . It started out as a bean and meat dish but later on was prepared with small macaroni now called " ditalini", peppers and the meat was 86d. optional hot pepper seeds are usually offered with it.

My father made it every Friday (Roman Catholics) and I grew up on it. I still make my own today and it's simple, one pot prepartion yet delicious.

Recipie is a real quickie if anyone wants it.

Cheers,

Richard
Titus Publius Saturninus
Richard Tonti
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#19
I am sure I remember seeing an article about Romans and pasta...and a reconstructed Roman pasta making machine... :?
The mixture of wheat flour, water and salt fried in oil, Aurelia mentioned, is also an Asian Indian recipe, I have made it on quite a few occasions....can't think what it is called.
I make rosemary 'bread' from flour, water, olive oil and rosemary (salt to taste)...cooked either in the oven or microwave...it is delicious and tastes lovely with honey too.
Romans on the march or in an impending battle situation, would want simple and easy to prepare food, rolling flour and water/egg into a few balls or strips and dropping them into a pan of water or oil...gives a quick filling snack, that could be eaten cold later and it is more than likely that pasta evolved from some of these being mixed in with a stew, to bulk it out.
Cristina
The Hoplite Association
[url:n2diviuq]http://www.hoplites.org[/url]
The enemy is less likely to get wind of an advance of cavalry, if the orders for march were passed from mouth to mouth rather than announced by voice of herald, or public notice. Xenophon
-
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#20
Try this bread. It is amazing as well as being completely different than any bread you may have tried before.

ENJOY!

Titus


Roman sourdough bread

Ingredients:
500 gram spelt flour
¼ litre white grapejuice
200 gram sourdough on room temperature
75 gram fresh goat cheese (chevre) at roomtemperature
2 tablespoons olive oil
1 tablespoon honey
1 teaspoon each of aniseed and cumin seeds
½ teaspoon salt
and also some yeast (15 gram fresh or 5 gram dried)
Temper the sourdough with 1 decilitre of the grape juice, 100 gram spelt flour
and honey (sponge). Let this stand for at least an hour on a warm spot, then mix
in the other ingrediënts. Knead well until you have an elastic dough. Let it
rise on a warm spot under a damp cloth for an hour. knead again, and let it rise
again for an hour. Now you can create your bread in any form you like. Use your
fantasy, or create a simple loaf.
When the bread is formed, let is again rise, this time for half an hour. Preheat
the oven to 220ºC/425ºF. Bake the bread for 20 to 25 minutes.
Spelt flour: Spelt is a grain. This grain flourishes best on poor ground, with
no pesticedes. That is why less and less spelt is being cultivated since the
beginning of the twentieth century. It is an uneconomical crop. Apicius names
spelt several times in his recipes. You can buy spelt flour (at least in the
Netherlands) in organic foodshops.
Sourdough: What is it. Sourdough is a mixture of lukewarm water and flour
(wheat or rye), in which "wild" yeast cultures grow. The mixture (water to flour
1:1 to 2:1) must stand for a couple of days at room temperature. The bacteries
in the mixture will multiply and cause the caracteristic sour smell. These days
often "tame" yeast is also added to the breaddough to help the rising along.
How to make your own sourdough. When you want to make your own dough you have a
small problem: how do you catch wild yeast?
You can set the flour/water mixture someplace and hope for a satisfying result.
One is dependent on what is in the air. Sometimes you get lucky and a great
sourdough is the result, sometimes you get something rather unsavoury, and
sometimes nothing happens. Start with 100 gram whole wheat flour and 1 to 2
decilitre lukewarm water. Let it stand at room temperature for a couple of days,
covered with a damp cloth. Stir well twice a day. When you have caught the right
yeast, the mixture will start to smell sour. After three days add 1 tablespoon
flour and 1 tablespoon water, repeat this the next day. In less then a week you
have a sourdough ready to bake bread with. When you want to, you can add a
teaspoon of honey or sugar.
How to get ready made sourdough. When you want to be on the safe side you can
ask a gift of sourdough from a friend that has a good one, or buy a "sourdough
starter" and follow the directions on the package. If you can't find any in the
stores in your neighbourhood, you could visit this site.
How to keep your sourdough. Once you have satisfying sourdough you have to take
care of it. Keep your little "pets" in the refrigerator in a closed container.
Some advice to punch some holes in the cover, but you then risk a rather smelly
refrigerator. At least once a week (twice is better) you have to air the
sourdough: let it stand, covered with a damp cloth, at roomtemperature for 24
hours. When you look at your sourdough you will see that it has seperated in
sediment at the bottom and a grey-brown fluid on top. Stir this well. You will
have to feed your pets: after stirring, add equal measures of lukewarm water and
flour. Take some of the sourdough out to bake a bread with, or to give away.
How to bake sourdough bread. For 500 gram flour (whole wheat, optionally mixed
with rye, oats, millet) use 100 gram sourdough and 3,5 to 4 decilitre water
(start with 3,5 decilitre, add more water only if the dough needs it). The
recipe for Roman bread has different proportions. You also have the right to
experiment!
Yeast: Fresh (pressed) yeast must be crumbled and mixed in some lukewarm water
with a spoonfull of flour. After fifteen minutes you add it to the bread dough
or sponge. Dried yest is mixed into the dry flour.
Titus Publius Saturninus
Richard Tonti
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#21
Supposedly what were interperated as pasta making tools were found in Pompeii
A few suggestions from MamasKitchen
Quote:Pasta in Ancient Greece and Rome
The Internet abounds with assertions that Greek mythology proves that the 'Greek God, Vulcan,' invented a device that made "strings of dough." Vulcan was a Roman god, not Greek, one who was associated with volcanoes and the fiery forge, and his Greek counterpart was Hephaestus. Nowhere in the works of the Greek writer, Homer, or the Roman, Ovid, is there mention of anything forged by Hephaestus or Vulcan other than armor, jewelry, and the fragile threads that trapped Venus and Mars in their lovemaking.
There is validity, however, in the belief that the Ancient Greeks and Romans had discovered some form of flattened dough - this a broad noodle called in Greek 'laganon.' It is significant, however, that this was not boiled as we boil lasagna noodles, but roasted on hot stones or in ovens - more related to what we would think of as pizza.

(Arthes---"a flat round of dough dressed with olive oil, herbs, and honey baked on stones" mentioned by Marcus Porcius Cato as eaten in Magna Grecia, 3rd century bce---)

Apicius, a Roman writer of the first century AD describes a pasta made "to enclose timballi and pies..." These were called "lagana.' The recipe for the dough is not given, however there are suggestions for layering and seasoning with meat and fish.

The Arabs and Pasta
The first certain record of noodles cooked by boiling is in the Jerusalem Talmud, written in Aramaic in the 5th century AD. The word used for the noodles was itriyah. In Arabic references this word stands for the dried noodles purchased from a vendor, rather than homemade noodles which would have been fresh. Dried noodles are portable, while fresh must be eaten immediately. More than likely, pasta was introduced during the Arab conquests of Sicily, carried in as a dry staple. The Arab geographer, Al Idrisi wrote that a flour-based product in the shape of strings was produced in Palermo, then an Arab colony.

Some historians think the Sicilian word "maccaruni" which translates as "made into a dough by force" is the origin of our word, macaroni. Anyone who has kneaded durum wheat knows that force is necessary.

In the ancient methods of making pasta, force meant kneading the dough with the feet, often a process that took a full day. Ancient Sicilian lasagna dishes, some still eaten in Sicily today, included raisins and spices brought by the Arab invaders, another indication that the Arabs introduced pasta. Whether the Arabs sauced pasta is questionable, and the array of sauces may be an Italian invention. What is certain is that the climate of Italy was perfect for growing durum wheat, a hard wheat from which we get semolina, and the availability of the wheat ensured its popularity. Soft wheat can be used for fresh pasta, but semolina is used for dried pasta.

The Etruscans and Pasta
Another probably incorrect theory of the origin of pasta is based on archeological findings in Etruscan tombs. Carvings on some of the stucco reliefs in the tombs depict a knife, a board, a flour sack, all of which may have had other uses. There is, however, an iron pin that enthusiasts of the Etruscan theory would convince us was used to shape tubular pasta. Some scholars scoff at this interpretation, as the pin could have been used for other purposes. There is no other hard evidence to support the claim that pasta history began with the Etruscans.
Cristina
The Hoplite Association
[url:n2diviuq]http://www.hoplites.org[/url]
The enemy is less likely to get wind of an advance of cavalry, if the orders for march were passed from mouth to mouth rather than announced by voice of herald, or public notice. Xenophon
-
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#22
Quote:Yes we had pasta. The basic dish was " Pasta-Fagioli" and we also had tomatoes although there is a wide opinion that Romans didn't yet incorporate them into daily diet.

I have a great cousin in Campo Basso in Abruzzi who said that it was originally a very simple dish developed over a period of time. The idea was to provide gladiatorial and certain work force classes with a high nutrient high energy food that could be made in bulk quickly and easily with simple ingredients . It started out as a bean and meat dish but later on was prepared with small macaroni now called " ditalini", peppers and the meat was 86d. optional hot pepper seeds are usually offered with it.

My father made it every Friday (Roman Catholics) and I grew up on it. I still make my own today and it's simple, one pot prepartion yet delicious.

Recipie is a real quickie if anyone wants it.

Cheers,

Richard

I don't know about pasta... but the ancient Romans had tomatoes? Confusedhock: Are you sure there isn't some other similar vegetable you are thinking of? What we call tomatoes today are new world plants; they were unknown in Europe until at least the 16th century. Even then, tomato consumption was limited primarily to southern Europe and south America because an influential English scientist had written that the fruit was poisonous, or at least not very tasty. It took another 100 years or so before it was being eaten regularly by everyone.
-Christy Beall
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#23
Hi so I'm fulla maird and so is my cousin! Big Grin

Actually my Italian is about as good as my spot welding. I was corrected about what she was actually saying to me.

The story goes

Pasta fagioli is a dish that developed from the basic meal that was given either to the gladiator and or the Roman military. The tomatoes where a much later addition. Sorry about that.

Thank you much for your post!

Cheers!


Rick
Titus Publius Saturninus
Richard Tonti
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#24
No problem. That makes sense... was wondering if that was what you meant to say. :lol:
-Christy Beall
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