What was the lorica segmentata made out of

[stevesarak]

Hi,

I was thinking about the lorica segmentata, when it dawned on me that nowadays each plate is made of steel, (I think), which makes it light, flexible and strong. But during the time of the Republic, the Iron Age, weren’t they made of iron. And if so, was each plate made out of a thick piece of iron, very ridged, with the entire lorica segmentata weighing a lot more then current models?

Or did they use a blend of metals to make it strong but lighter and flexible

Have any or any pieces of them survived, and if so, does anyone have a link to it.

Thanks for the help and any info.

[Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs]

Have any or any pieces of them survived, and if so, does anyone have a link to it.

Steve, my efforts to attatch the links failed, however look on LegioXX's
site under segmentata and there are plenty of links to artifacts.
Corbridge a&b, Newstead, Kalkriese, too I believe. There was a thread here about a week or so ago that had pics of the Kalk.

[stevesarak]

Have any or any pieces of them survived, and if so, does anyone have a link to it.

Steve, my efforts to attatch the links failed, however look on LegioXX's
site under segmentata and there are plenty of links to artifacts.
Corbridge a&b, Newstead, Kalkriese, too I believe. There was a thread here about a week or so ago that had pics of the Kalk.

Excellant links.

Thanks

[Matthew Amt]

Hi,

I was thinking about the lorica segmentata, when it dawned on me that nowadays each plate is made of steel, (I think), which makes it light, flexible and strong. But during the time of the Republic, the Iron Age, weren’t they made of iron. And if so, was each plate made out of a thick piece of iron, very ridged, with the entire lorica segmentata weighing a lot more then current models?

Or did they use a blend of metals to make it strong but lighter and flexible

Have any or any pieces of them survived, and if so, does anyone have a link to it.

There have been several discussions about the metallurgy of the lorica segmentata already, not all that long ago. Did you miss those? Iron can be made to any thickness, just as steel can, and the density difference between them is not going to be significant. Iron is also quite malleable, though the amount of work hardening or other forging processes can affect the ridgidity and hardness. Lots of little pieces and some significant large chunks have survived, so we do have a pretty good idea of the thicknesses.

See Mike Bishop's site on Lorica Segmentata, and get the 2 JRMES monographs on the subject, one by Bishop and the other by Mike Thomas.

There is still some debate on the exact differences in defensive qualities between the ancient wrought iron in a lorica and modern mild steel, but the overall weight, functionality, and appearance of a modern reproduction can be quite accurate. It's actually more likely that the reproduction is heavier than the originals!

Vale,

Matthew

[stevesarak]

Thanks Mat.

I must have missed the thread on it, with work and a couple projects I’m working on, I don’t seem to find the time to check RAT as much as I’d like.

You said that iron is quite malleable, is that during the forming of it, or in the final stage of it? I’ve always heard that iron, in its final form, is considered brittle, in the fact that it doesn’t give, no flexibility.

Thanks for the info, I’ll check Mike Bishop's site.

Here’s another question you might be able to answer, iron is one of the more brittle (less flexible) metals. Are there numerous accounts of solid strikes from axes or some other weapons causing the armor to crack? If so, wasn’t this a regular occurrence of iron armor, something the Romans had to worry about, a weakness in iron armor as a whole? And during the time of the republic, when soldiers purchased their own armor (I think) was it common to bring along extra segments that could be interchanged after the battle, to replace cracked or broken pieces?

Thanks again for any help.

[Magnus]

Hard to say though steve...it all depends on whether or not it's been heat treated or not. Iron that is heated red hot and allowed to cool becomes quite soft and flexible, whereas hammering it to shape is what makes it strong but brittle. Hard to say what the armorsmiths did to the final plates...I can't see them letting them stay hard and brittle, but too soft and it doesn't work well either.

Plus I'm not sure we know how much carbon was added into the iron during the forging process, since some pieces (swords and armour) have been analyzed to find either littler or none, or enough to qualify it as steel.

[Gaius_Calvus]

Steve,

I'll leave your excellent questions on mettalurgy and brittleness to the experts, but at the time of the Republic when Soldiers bought their own gear, there were no segmentatae in use.

Our earliest known examples of segmentatae date from approximately 10BC - 45AD, with fragments clearly dating this armor to finds from AD 9 near Kalkriese in Germany, the site of the ambush of Varus' three legions in the Teutoberg Forest.

So, the segmentata would have been issued to the legionary and post-date the time of personal provision of armor by the individual legionary.

Edge

[stevesarak]

Steve,

I'll leave your excellent questions on mettalurgy and brittleness to the experts, but at the time of the Republic when Soldiers bought their own gear, there were no segmentatae in use.

Our earliest known examples of segmentatae date from approximately 10BC - 45AD, with fragments clearly dating this armor to finds from AD 9 near Kalkriese in Germany, the site of the ambush of Varus' three legions in the Teutoberg Forest.

So, the segmentata would have been issued to the legionary and post-date the time of personal provision of armor by the individual legionary.

Edge

Thanks,

I don’t know how that got past me; I always thought that Caesar’s heavy infantry wore them, I’ll have to go back to the books.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Steve,

I'll leave your excellent questions on mettalurgy and brittleness to the experts, but at the time of the Republic when Soldiers bought their own gear, there were no segmentatae in use.

Our earliest known examples of segmentatae date from approximately 10BC - 45AD, with fragments clearly dating this armor to finds from AD 9 near Kalkriese in Germany, the site of the ambush of Varus' three legions in the Teutoberg Forest.

So, the segmentata would have been issued to the legionary and post-date the time of personal provision of armor by the individual legionary.

Edge

Thanks,

I don’t know how that got past me; I always thought that Caesar’s heavy infantry wore them, I’ll have to go back to the books.

Yeah, I used to be under that delusion too! Darned those experts! :lol: :lol:

[Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs]

Steve,
For good info about metals and what the segs were possibly made of please check this thread:http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=10525&highlight=
especially what Chris has to say. He seems to be very knowledgeable.

(sorry, it didn't highlight so look for "why not stainless steel for segs").

[Matthew Amt]

You said that iron is quite malleable, is that during the forming of it, or in the final stage of it? I’ve always heard that iron, in its final form, is considered brittle, in the fact that it doesn’t give, no flexibility.

No idea where you heard that one! Unless you're thinking of CAST iron, like frying pans are made of--that has such a high carbon content that it is indeed rather rigid and brittle (though obviously not quite like glass!). But the Romans generally did not make cast iron. No, iron with a lower carbon content than is considered "steel" is not that hard. It can be worked hot or cold, but like most any other metal if you work it too long while cold it will crack. The "final stage" is whatever you like, nicely hammer-hardened or with a final annealing to "normalize" it. I'm not sure how much affect quenching and tempering has on iron--it won't be as dramatic as with good steel.

Here’s another question you might be able to answer, iron is one of the more brittle (less flexible) metals. Are there numerous accounts of solid strikes from axes or some other weapons causing the armor to crack?

Nothing that I've ever heard of, except for some suggestions from modern writers that this could have happened in the late middle ages with high-grade hardened steel armor. Not a problem for the Romans. Really, iron is NOT brittle or inflexible, except maybe compared to lead or gold.

Vale,

Matthew

[stevesarak]

Gaivs Antonivs - thanks for the RAT link, very informative, I learned a lot.

Matthew – Thanks for the info, I don’t know where I got the idea that iron was that brittle, it was probably talking about the reaction of high stress and impact and breaking points between iron, steel, and titanium. The strength and flexibility of iron in normal use, just as the Romans would have used it or everyday usage was obviously skipped in some of my discussions. Thanks for taking the time to share some of your knowledge.

I’m sure that others that read these posts and never log on, enjoy the expertise they come across.

Now that I have a better understanding of iron, I have a better idea of how the lorica segmentata stood up.

Hope this isn’t asking to many questions, but this brings up another one “like most any other metal if you work it too long while cold it will crackâ€

[Marcus Julius]

No idea where you heard that one! Unless you're thinking of CAST iron, ....

my first thought when I read it, too.

...I'm not sure how much affect quenching and tempering has on iron--it won't be as dramatic as with good steel.
....

From my understanding of tempering, it's effectiveness is based on carbon content. Please keep in mind, that I am only in the beginnings of learning to forge, but at least two sources I've found dealing with hardening state that tempering is nearly ineffective with all but the best of alloys. Without the extra carbon from using a coal forge, even modern mild steels can't be appreciatively hardened by tempering. Though they DO hammer harden, from being banged into shape.

[Matthew Amt]

Happy to help, Steve!

Steve Sarak\\n[quote]Hope this isn’t asking to many questions, but this brings up another one “like most any other metal if you work it too long while cold it will crackâ€

[A_Volpe]

Yeah, I would say that you'd suffer more damage to the internal leather harness and to the brass fittings and hinges before you'd have any real trouble with the iron plates.

And at that, I think rust would be the greater concern than actual battle damage!