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07-16-2001, 11:40 AM

I was wondering on how the Romans spoke the Latin language & the influence of Latin in Italy during that time.Did the Romans speak it with a distinct accent? And did people of the provinces in Italy speak it in their own distinct way? And did most people in Italy then speak the language? I imagine that in the provinces the upper-classes & educated ones did,while the poorer folk did not,just like any country today.And is there any difference between the Latin of Ancient Rome with the Medieval one? Someone who I spoke with in the IRC who claims that he has lived in Italy said that ancient languages like Etruscan & Samnite still survive in the dialects of Italy today.Is this true? Comments would be appreciated.

07-16-2001, 11:51 AM

Without a tape recorder, we can't know for sure how the accents differed between classes and especially between the ages. 
 
Understanding of language patterns, however can lead linguists to general and specific theories about ancient tongues. 
 
In Medieval Latin, there was a difference between "V" and "U", and they used the letter "J". In Classical Latin, the "V" sounds like a "W" unless it sounds like a "U". The reader can discern how the "V" should be interpreted from the surrounding letters as in VALOR v. FORTVNA. Medieval Latin also used lower-case letters and the use of abbreviation wasn't prevalent as it was in the classical style of writing. 
 
I dont' know about Etruscan, but there are places in the mountains just south of Switzerland where people speak Italian with a liberal sprinkling of Latin words. 
 
 SI HOC LEGERE POTES, OPERIS BONI IN REBVS LATINIS FRVCTVOSIS POTIRI POTES.

07-16-2001, 12:37 PM

Salve, 
 
Though it is impossible to reconstruct exactly how Latin would have sounded, there are some clues to the pronounciation due to mistakes made in writing when people used phonetic spelling. Another manner to get a clue about it's pronounciation comes from transliteration of Latin words into Greek. In inscriptions and papyri the use of Latin words written down in the Greek alphabet is quite common, whereas other literary sources like historians usually employ real translations. Thus it appears that the 'C' was pronounced as a 'K' and that the 'AE" combination sounded like 'AI'. A name like Caesar would thus have been pronounced as 'Kaisar' (cf modern German Kaiser for emperor) rather than 'Seasar'. The pronounciation of 'V' like a 'W' is also supported by the use of the "OU" combination to represent this letter in the Greek alphabet. 
 
A difference between upperclass and lowerclass accents was probably the pronounciation of 'AU' as 'O' based on the fact that patrician Claudii wishing to stand for the tribunate and enrolled as plebeians changed their nomen gentiliciumto Clodius. There are several references to local dialects in the sources, but for this you should try to find specialised works. While Oscan and Etrurian are recorded for the late republican period, these apparently died out in the course of the imperial era. The emperor Claudius is recorded as having known Etruscan, which by then was quite rare. 
 
Latin would be spoken by the elite and by army personel. Even in the east the army administration was partly done in Latin and Latin remained the language of command in the army well into Byzantine times: the only definite Latin army commands known are in fact from the handbook of Mauricius. Some army slang included words of Celtic origin as indicated by Arrian's Tactica. Due to the fact that much Roman weaponry was taken over from other peoples it is not surprising that much of the associated terminology was likewise of foreign origin. Local languages survived for everyday use, Celtic being recorded as spoken in late Roman times as well as local languages in Asia Minor, Latin and Greek serving as a lingua franca in the western and eastern parts of the empire respectively. 
 
The church Latin in follows the pronounciation according to the Italian manner which evolved in late Antiquity and the early middle ages. 
 
This page on pronounciation is on the Australian legio VIIII Hispana site: 
 
www.geocities.com/Athens/...ronunc.htm 
 
Regards, 
 
Sander van Dorst Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showLocalUserPublicProfile?login=sandervandorst>Sander van Dorst</A> at: 7/16/01 2:51:08 pm

Goffredo · 07-16-2001, 01:45 PM

There was a fellow called Lorenzo Valla that in 1440 proved that a latin document called (more or less) the Constantine Donative was false. This donative was supposedly a donation that Constantine made to the Bishop in Rome of the Western half of the Empire (not as emperor but as high priest). This document was refered to everytime, throughout the middle ages until 1440, by the Popes of Rome when they wanted to proclaim their juridiction over temporal matters in the West; i.e. always! The document was considered authentic even by those that disagreed with its temporal implications. Well Mr. Valla made an unbiased study of the Latin used and came to the conclusion that it wasn't 3rd century Latin; i.e. it was a false! Latin evolved as did its pronunciation. It was a lively language. 
 
P.S. This episode is a true classic of "scientific"(linguistics) analysis. Of course Mr. Valla got into all kinds of trouble and was almost put to death (as he also proved that the prayer CREDO was not ancient - was not written by the apostles). Quite a guy and very VERY modern. Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/ugoffredo.showPublicProfile?language=EN>goffredo</A> at: 7/16/01 4:00:29 pm

07-17-2001, 05:05 PM

Thanks for the replies. By the way,do all of you gentlemen speak Latin?

07-17-2001, 05:58 PM

I speak a little. I'm still learning. 
 
There's a great text book called Latin For Americans that puts Latin grammar into a context that's easier to understand than other books I've tried to use. I don't know if it's still in print. I got mine at a second-hand store. SI HOC LEGERE POTES, OPERIS BONI IN REBVS LATINIS FRVCTVOSIS POTIRI POTES.Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/umariusursae.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Marius Ursae</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC=http://www.iconbazaar.com/animals/bear07.gif height=20 width=20 BORDER=0> at: 7/17/01 7:59:33 pm

07-17-2001, 06:18 PM

Salve, 
 
There is so little chance to speak it (at least without having people around you stare at you with strange glances), so it is mostly limited to reading Latin. 
 
Regards, 
 
Sander van Dorst

07-17-2001, 06:24 PM

Still it's fun to throw Latin into e-mails just to see what people notice it. My current e-mail auto-signature is "VIVETE DIV ET FORTVNATE" 
 
E EM SI HOC LEGERE POTES, OPERIS BONI IN REBVS LATINIS FRVCTVOSIS POTIRI POTES.

07-17-2001, 10:12 PM

I could never converse in Latin, but I know enough to understand the famous phrases and read a simple inscription. I never knew c=k... thanks for the info. -Quintus Constantius, Praetorian Prefect and Consul of Rome

07-18-2001, 05:54 AM

Salve, 
 
These articles deal with the Latin written by soldiers and officers: 
 
Adams, J.N., 'The language of the Vindolanda writing tablets: an interim report' in: Journal of Roman Studies 85 (1995), 86- 134. 
Adams, J.N., 'The poets of Bu Njem: language, culture and the centurionate' in: Journal of Roman Studies 89 (1999), 109-134. 
 
In the first one attention is drawn to some archaic aspects of the Latin used by army clerks. The latter shows that the centurionate, drawn in part from the educated elite, shared similar interests as their civilian counterparts. 
 
Regards, 
 
Sander van Dorst

07-18-2001, 03:05 PM

I can relate Sander. People's ignorance at times can be intolerable.

Goffredo · 07-18-2001, 07:22 PM

I don't know Latin. Holy cow! Am I to be banned? Why do you find the ignorance of Latin intollerable? If there IS something to deplore of the mental states of the multitudes, it is the sad fact that most will never find an interest in life that will keep them company throughout and make their minds fly, NOT that they don't know Latin! You (we) are lucky to have a passion! 
 
As for me, I might, out of passion, study Latin, but I have other passions too. I truely envy those that can read Latin because I would like to feel the rythm of the language that I can only vaguely imagine and because I want to have direct contact with a long dead soul (e.g. Tacitus) without the undesired mediation of a third party - the translator - even if talented (*). I might learn Latin for these reasons, certainly not because I feel "inferior". 
 
(*) Someone (a male chauvinist) said that translations are like women. The more beautiful they are, the less faithful. 
 
------------------------------------------------------ 
P.S. I, an average physicist, DO NOT find it intollerable that most people are ignorant of the laws of physics, although it can be vigorously argued (I am not, but just being fair) that knowing some physics is more important than knowing Latin as that knowledge permits us to write on computers or even read books using electricity allowing some to pursue their passion studies like Latin, ancient Greek, Egyptian, what ever. Without our the understanding of these laws of nature it is very likely that only a lucky few (very few) would study Latin and then spend their precious time translating for the 1 zillionth time Cicero and Tacitus without really ever having an original thought or something to say to the world, all while living off the efforts of vast and ignorant multitudes. Of these few, only a small hand full would really be creative and leave something behind besides translations of Cicero. 
 
This final blurb was only intended as a healthy torpedo for the "ship". With able manuevering the ship can certainly avoid it (e.g. physics is great but there are other things in life; "ignorance of history is to be condemned to repeat it" and other bla bla blas) but the captain must learn to not steer too straight a course. "It is a jungle out there" and animals bite back and I am not a plant.

07-18-2001, 08:17 PM

Salve Sander, 
I would like to know more about the progression of lingusistic 
analysis that traces the Latin V pronounciation as a W in relation to modern Italian, which of course pronounces the 
V as a V. Do you have more on this or references? 
Thanks, 
Allectus

Catiline · 07-18-2001, 09:20 PM

Play nicely children. 
 
I can read Latin, after a fashion. I scrapped my way through GCSE, A level and the preliminary year of my degree before anyone worked out that all I could actually do was write a good essay on English and learn the set text translations by heart.I'm safer with abreviated inscriptions as they're closer to my Latin, abreviated to avoid grammar. 
 
I also did Physics , both ancient and modern, modern's more exciting but less fun, if that makes sense.

Catiline · 07-18-2001, 09:23 PM

as we're on the subject IMO you can't translate Tacitus satisfactorily, less so than other ancient authors I've read,. Of course no translation is ever enough, and something is always lost, but Tacitus suffers particularly badly. 
 
And any attempt to translate Ancient poetry as poetry will always meet in disaster

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