Legionnaire combat training

[Lusitano]

What sort of drill would roman legionnaries have for combat training?

And more importantly did the attack maneuvers had names?
For example a gladius thrust to the face did it have a latin name?

[Endre Fodstad]

I don't believe we know much more about the training of legionaires than the few images we get from art and the translation of Juvenal's poetry made by Barton Holyday in 1661 that mentions that they trained with weighted wasters before passing on to real weapons, and against pells. A close scrutiny og ancient texts (being really careful, since this sort of thing is exactly what tends to get changed when texts are copied to make sense to the later reader, might unearth some more information. I wouldn't get my hopes up, though.

[Ti Cl Nero]

Salve,
Book I of Vegetius' Epitoma Rei Militaris (only latin text here) deals at length with legionary training; as you all know, though, Vegetius is extremely precious as a source, but has to be read with caution.
There are other sources briefly mentioning training, Polybius X,20 being one of those (have to check for others).

As for cavalry training in Hadrian's times, check Arrianus' Ars Tactica (widely dealt with in Hylands "Training the roman cavalry", 1993).
Vale

[Endre Fodstad]

It's been a while since I read Vegetius (borrowed my copy away to someone and forgot who), but he doesn't treat individual training in detail, does he? It's more general things and movement of larger bodies of troops? Polybius doesn't talk much about the individual stuff either, as I recall it?

Or did Lusitano want to know about unit training as well?

[Ti Cl Nero]

Hello,
no, Vegetius actually deals (also) with individual training.
Polybius, as you say, deals with individual training but only breifly, at X.20 (though it is an interesting insight in Scipio's Spanish campaign in II punic war).
There's more about unit training and mock battles, as you say, but I can't recall the source now.
I would add another important source for later army individual training: Maurice's Strategikon I.1.
Vale

[john m roberts]

Cato the Elder states that he taught his son to ride, swim and fight with a sword, skills he would need when he joined his legion. Since Cato was by his own modest admission the very embodiment of Roman virtue, I think we can assume that, at least in the Republican period, most recruits were expected to be at least partially home-trained in the sword and spear by fathers and uncles by the time they joined their legions, leaving the legion to concentrate on mass drill. Gladiator trainers were brought in when especially large drafts of new soldiers were called up to meet an emergency, and many young men not of traditionally military families were put under arms.

[Lusitano]

Yes my question was mainly individual training.

The reason for this is because in certain events we dedicate part of the afternoon to children, teaching them how to fight with wooden swords (with a monitor ALWAYS present) and teach them about certain aspects of roman/legionnaire life. At the moment we use medieval "attack" names since we come from a medieval background, but we would like very much to be more accurate (if possible) so as not to mislead the audience.

Basically we get 10-15 children and give them wooden words and at a voice of command they do the attacks.
Its a bit risky to put them to fight one another since some are a bit to eager to strike at their oponent hock:

So we would like to do this routine (since children like it and so do the parents with their cameras) but would like to be the more accurate possible.

[M. Demetrius]

Its a bit risky to put them to fight one another since some are a bit to eager to strike at their oponent

For contact sparring, have you considered using softer swords? There are some good foam swords, and, of course, you can make your own.

Just a thought.

[Lusitano]

Its a bit risky to put them to fight one another since some are a bit to eager to strike at their oponent

For contact sparring, have you considered using softer swords? There are some good foam swords, and, of course, you can make your own.

Just a thought.

Yeah i did but how would you feel as a parent if you saw your child beeing bashed in the head by another kid even if it was a foam sword.

Not pretty.

At the end we do put a kid agains another bit only with predetermined attacks/defenses. The kids like it and the parents always take a couple of pictures. So for now i belive it is the best.


Edit: forgot to mention that sometimes we ge a lot of little kids, like 5 years old. Its kinda cute seeing such a little one handling a sword, even if a wooden one

[M. Demetrius]

Well, we do a kid gladiator match now and then, and we use admittedly "farby" equipment for them--foam edged shields, soft swords, plastic helmets, etc., and the parents not only don't mind, they recognize that all that can be is done so they don't have to do any extra dental work, and they really like it. You should hear some of them in the audience--they're more battle-ready than the kids!

Maybe it's different where you are, but around here, the parents look at it the same as any other competitive thing, and since nobody gets hurt, it's all good, and it seems to be growing. The hard part is getting the parents to get the kids to the practices, etc.

[Lusitano]

Well around here some parents might find it fun to see their kids sparring, others perhaps not. At the moment we just arent willing to risk it.

BTW do you give any special instruction to the gladiator kids or do you just "drop" them in the arena?

[M. Demetrius]

Yes, we do give them instruction, as much as we can. We don't allow kids in the arena who have NOT been coached in what's allowed, what's not, and had a chance to practice at least a little while with the helmets (which are really construction site hard hats with polycarbonate face shields bolted on), swords and shields, etc. We furnish them with tunics to wear, so they look more "Roman", and it's a fun time.

We'd get somebody hurt if we just put unknown kids together in the arena. That's pretty risky.

Actually, we're trying to get some regulars who are the opening acts for our adult gladiator shows. Again, even with adults, we don't use hard edged weapons because we're not really athletes, we're just regular people putting on a show, and we don't practice often enough or hard enough to make it safe to use wood or steel. Some folks do, and some of them get broken arms, smashed noses, blacked eyes, etc. We don't think that's necessary to make the crowd happy, and so far, it's not.

[Lusitano]

Yes, we do give them instruction, as much as we can.

Instructions like "right this is a strait cut and you do it like this...etc etc" or do you have specific latin names?

Again, even with adults, we don't use hard edged weapons because we're not really athletes, we're just regular people putting on a show, and we don't practice often enough or hard enough to make it safe to use wood or steel. Some folks do, and some of them get broken arms, smashed noses, blacked eyes, etc. We don't think that's necessary to make the crowd happy, and so far, it's not.

Well in our gladiator shows (we've only done 2, one of them in a bullfight arena, altough we were more like noxii then proper gladiators, we are still trying to find a good supplier) we use steel weapons (blunted) but our fights are coreographed and we practice 2 times a week every week. Leather gloves are a must (even at the risk of beeing anachronic), of course sometimes accidents happen (even in professional sports) but we are very strict in safety so it happens very very rarelly (actually most of our accidents are off combat, like someone tripping in some stairs or something idiotic like that )

I would be very interested in knowing your combat drill for kids, if you can.

[M. Demetrius]

Sure, it's not that complicated. We don't choreograph, we do freeform fighting, but we keep in mind that the other person is really our friend, so we don't hit harder than needed to register the contact. Usually, it's enough. Sometimes hits get missed, and sometimes the lanista doesn't see them, but it all works out...we just wait for the next opening.

With kids, and adults, we teach the same things. Straight thrust to the body, forehand and backhand slash to the body or leg, overhead downward cut to the head (helmet) or shoulder, quick slices to exposed arms and legs, basically simple sword technique.

Then we discuss and demonstrate at least one parry or block with the sword for all those, and explain that the shield is the best defense (if your gladiator has one) and how to redirect the attack using the shield, to make an opening that you use to advantage.

Next we simply figure out based on where the parry takes the attacker's weapon, what would be the best attack (using the above list, for example), then the defense for that, so I suppose we're really teaching some basic simple fencing techniques. It's surprising how many variations of that we come up with.

And we use some very simple grasping techniques...for example, sometimes, the best thing to do is to drop the spear, grab the opponent's sword hand, and slice his wrist with the dagger. Once done, he has to drop his sword, and you have the upper hand. We allow combatants to pick up weapons they've dropped, if it's possible. In this case, the one person would have lost use of the sword hand, so he'd have to make some kind of quick adjustment, or be in a lot of trouble. We don't let kids grapple like that, though, we prefer for them to stay a little farther apart, even with padded shields.