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The Last Sleep of Arthur in Avalon
#1
Hello.


H. Nickel and S Littleton american researchers was write: Arthur the legendary king not disposal Celtic root. Arthur have scithyan or sarmatian root.

János Makkay in 1996 was make a study.

Marcus Aurélius in 175 from Hungary tousand alán-sarmata jazig katafrakta cavallry transplanted in Britannia. Arthurs father calling Uther Pendragon.
Vallus István Big Grin <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt="Big Grin" title="Very Happy" />Big Grin

A sagittis Hungarorum, libera nos Domine
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#2
That is an extremely simplistic summary of the theory presented by Scott Littleton and Linda Malcor: Littleton, C. Scott and Linda A. Malcor: From Scythia to Camelot, (Garland 1994).

You present this as if it's written in stone.

By no means. Maybe the Sarmatians (not Scythians) had a Roman commander who was named Lucius Artorius Castus. These events took place in the 2nd c. AD.
These Sarmatians remained in Britain, or part of them. Their cavalry unit was based in Ribchester, West Yorkshire.

No subsequent link has been presented to the King Arthur of early medieval legend. None at all. No Sarmatian knights thundered across the post-Roman British green and pleasant land.

That also means that the claim that "Arthur the legendary king has no Celtic root"is not based on any scientific proof.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#3
Quote:That is an extremely simplistic summary of the theory presented by Scott Littleton and Linda Malcor: Littleton, C. Scott and Linda A. Malcor: From Scythia to Camelot, (Garland 1994).

You present this as if it's written in stone.

By no means. Maybe the Sarmatians (not Scythians) had a Roman commander who was named Lucius Artorius Castus. These events took place in the 2nd c. AD.
These Sarmatians remained in Britain, or part of them. Their cavalry unit was based in Ribchester, West Yorkshire.

No subsequent link has been presented to the King Arthur of early medieval legend. None at all. No Sarmatian knights thundered across the post-Roman British green and pleasant land.

That also means that the claim that "Arthur the legendary king has no Celtic root"is not based on any scientific proof.


He may have been a Spaniard :8)

According to Radio 4 this morning a gineticist has proven that 80% of original inhabitants in UK came from Basque area of Spain ... but a very long time ago. It would be suggested that the Celtic language invaded but not the "Celts" Confusedhock
Conal Moran

Do or do not, there is no try!
Yoda
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#4
Quote:He may have been a Spaniard :8)


thats sacrilidge!!!! blastphemer!!!!!!


hell i cant spell for nothing ehhehehe
Tiberius Claudius Lupus

Chuck Russell
Keyser,WV, USA
[url:em57ti3w]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/flonzy/Roman/index.htm[/url]
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#5
Big Grin
We should also focus on a very important aspect.
Though this "sarmatian unit" , which according to Cassius Dio (LXXII, 16-19) was recruited and sent to britain by Marcus Aurelus, is attested in (mostly epigraphic) sources with different names (not uncommon feature, it is quite possible that it's an evolution of the same unit) - numerus equitum Sarmatarum, ala Sarmatarum, cuneum Sarmatarum - until early V century, and though we have other instances of ethincal units whose veterans had been settled in the area where they had served starting thus an ethnical community which would go on feeding their "unit" with new recruits maintainign ethincal connotation and continuity (for this principle applied to "british" sarmatians, see Richmond I.A., "The Sarmatae, Bremetennacum veteranurom, and the Regio Bremetennacensis", in Journal of Roman Studies 55 , 1945) , we should also consider that very often units which originally had had a strong ethnical connotation, when sent to an area far from their homeland (as in this circumstance) , had their gaps progressively filled with recruits from local areas or even from whatever other provinces roman central power considered proper.
Thus, it is not unlikely - it may also be likely, since it's quite a common feature - that as centuries passed by, the ethnical connotation of this unit became less and less evident, and in V century the unit's name - or little more - might have been the only remaining link with sarmatians (for this possibility related to "british" sarmatians see also Barbero, A. "Barbari: immigrati, profughi, deportati nell'impero romano", 2006).
Both these possibilities are quite plausible.
I think, then, that the existance of this unit shouldn't and couldn't be used as serious "proof" for anything sarmatian-related in post-roman britain.
Valete.
Iuppiter Optimus Maximus resistere atque iterare pugnam iubet
(Liv. I.12)


Tiberius Claudius Nero
a.k.a. Carlo Sansilvestri


CONTUBERNIUM
SISMA - Società Italiana per gli Studi Militari Antichi
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#6
Quote: though we have other instances of ethincal units whose veterans had been settled in the area where they had served starting thus an ethnical community which would go on feeding their "unit" with new recruits maintainign ethincal connotation and continuity
Indeed, but how long was that kept up?
I know this is not only what Richmond proposed, more than 60 years ago now, but it's also the main line in the Malcor camp, who maintain that this was kept up until the end of the empire, or through the 'free-ranging Sarmatians' that Linda malcor came up with.
In my opinion, the last Sarmatians that we hear of are those north of the Danube, who are most likely subjugated by the Goths. That means that at least for more than a century between that time and the emergence of 'Arthurian Britain', no Sarmatian could have reached Britain.

But in my opinion, this truckload of Sarmatians (even if it was a BIG truckload) was the last to be transported to Britain. the next batches were settled in Gaul and northern Italy.

Quote:we should also consider that very often units which originally had had a strong ethnical connotation, when sent to an area far from their homeland (as in this circumstance) , had their gaps progressively filled with recruits from local areas or even from whatever other provinces roman central power considered proper.
Indeed. I think that's what must have happened to the other Sarmatian settlers and units that we know of. Bachrach pointed to the fact that during the late 4th and 5th centuries, it's Alan units that get to be placed in the neighbourhood of where the Sarmatians were settled first. It was his deduction that the Sarmatians, by that time (two generations after being settled there) had lost their military value.Bachrach, Bernard S. (1973): A History of the Alans in the West, from their first appearance in the sources of classical antiquity through the early middle ages, University of Minnesota Press, Minneapolis.

Quote:I think, then, that the existance of this unit shouldn't and couldn't be used as serious "proof" for anything sarmatian-related in post-roman britain.

My man!

Also read Kovalevskaja's article about the large occurrance of Sarmatian names in Gaul: Kovalevskaja, V.B. (1993): La présence alano-sarmate en Gaule, in: Vallet et Kazanski, L'Armee Romaine, pp. 209-221.[/quote]
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#7
Quote:Their cavalry unit was based in Ribchester, West Yorkshire.

Hi Vortigern.

Ribchester is in Lancashire. Wars have been fought between Lancashire and Yorkshire over lesser claims.We don't want to antagonise our neighbours unnecessarily.

But Robin Hood definitely was a Yorkshireman.

best

Harry Amphlett
Harry Amphlett
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#8
Quote:Indeed, but how long was that kept up

I guess this is heavily depending on the context, but the few clear examples of this type of ethnical communities we have, didn't last more than a century or so ( for instance the Syrian cohors at Intercisa, Pannonia, around which a Syirian closed community arose, keeping ethincal connotation unchanged during the whole III century AD - see Fitz "Les Syriens à Intercisa", Bruxelles, 1972)
It is absolutely unlikely that such communities could keep on for 3 centuries - and this would apply to "british" Sarmatians as well, I think


Quote:But in my opinion, this truckload of Sarmatians (even if it was a BIG truckload) was the last to be transported to Britain. the next batches were settled in Gaul and northern Italy.

I agree.
The truckload to Britain happens in anomalous times for what relates settlement of barbarians - the reign of Marcus Aurelius (by the way, the surprising numerus gothorum gentilorum in Arabia dates from the same period) - and seems to be unique.
We know of at least two significant settlements of Sarmatians within the empire in IV century.
The first occurred during Constantine reign, and followed the uprising of the Limigantes which succesfully ruled out leading sarmatian groups forcing them to seek refuge in the roman empire.
Contemporary sources (Eusebius, Anonymus Valesianus) state that they were settled in Scythia, Macedonia, Italy and Thracia, and that those who were suited, were recruited in the army.
This *may* be where Alae Sarmatarum ,one of which we know to have been in Egypt in late IV century, may have originated (ND lists only VII Ala Sarmatarum, which suggests that 6 more units like that may have been recruited and then disbanded before late IV century).
ND lists also 15 praefecti Sarmatarum gentilium in Italy - which are commonly considered on the same level of the praefecti laetorum listed in Gaul: institutions managed by military, aimed to the settlements of large group of immigrates with the same pattern which had been used before in order to settle large groups of roman rempatriated pows when treaties were stipulated.
Likely, then, most (even though not necessariy all of them) of these 15 "italian" offices for the settlement of Sarmatians date back to Constantine - concordance with other literary sources is clear.
Interestingly enough, the ND also lists 6 more Praefecti Sarmatarum gentilium in Gaul, but sources never mention Gaul when talking about Constantine's settlements of Sarmatians.
So, these praefectures were probably set up after Constantine and before the end of IV century.
Sarmatians' pressure on the limes had grown again a few years later, and Constantius II tried to settle things with a succesful sudden campaign against Sarmatians who hadn't yet found refuge within the empire; he also sent most of the Sarmatians formerly settled by Constantine, back to their homeland (here is where some of the Alae Sarmataurm *may* have been disbanded) and tried to re-organize them *there*, also giving them a king.
Ammianus tells about these events (XVII.12).
Limigantes refused to accept those groups back, and here is where Constantius moved Limigantes far from the limes (still outside the empire) and crushed them when they tried to come back and revolt.
According to Ammianus, some groups of Limigantes, though, begged to be accepted within the empire as well, during these events (late 350s), even in areas far away from the Limes.
If this was at least partially granted (quite possible), the 6 praefecti sarmatarum gentilium in Gaul may have originated here.
That would fit : Gaul is far enough from that section of the limes, and no Sarmatian had been settled there before (according to the sources previusoly mentioned) - quite an understandable choice, then, since Sarmatian group settled before were mortal enemies of the Limigantes.
Anyway, we can't be sure things went this way, but we know that Sarmatians were in Gaul in late 360s: Ausonius mentions meeting Sarmatians coloni recently settled close to Strasbourg (Mosell.9): not only Constantius, then, but also Valentinianus or Gratian may have been responsible of these settlements of Sarmatians in Gaul - what we know for sure anyway, is that this settlement occurred right there.
We probably lack knowledge of many points, but I don't think we have clues of any other significant Sarmatian settlement within the empire before they disappeared - certainly it's highly unlikely that Sarmatians may have had anything to do with Britain again after their first settlement there by Marcus Aurelius - nothing at all allows us to suppose something like that.

Vale
Iuppiter Optimus Maximus resistere atque iterare pugnam iubet
(Liv. I.12)


Tiberius Claudius Nero
a.k.a. Carlo Sansilvestri


CONTUBERNIUM
SISMA - Società Italiana per gli Studi Militari Antichi
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#9
Quote:
Quote:Their cavalry unit was based in Ribchester, West Yorkshire.
Ribchester is in Lancashire. Wars have been fought between Lancashire and Yorkshire over lesser claims.We don't want to antagonise our neighbours unnecessarily.
Ouch! A major blunder, there! My apologies to all Lancastrians! Big Grin
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#10
If a unit of Sarmatians was settled in Britain, over time, if no replacements from the homeland were avaiable, it would be kept up with locals .... would the ethnic traditions of such a unit survive through to AD450 to 500 ?

I tend to think that they would be absorbed into local tradition but maybe an essence of originals may have pasased down.. a bit like the British Army NCOs having a "vitis"
Conal Moran

Do or do not, there is no try!
Yoda
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#11
Hallo Conal.

Uther Pendragon / Arthur s father/ have iranian/alán-sarmata/ root. Arthur born in Britannia. Pendragon/ Dragon Head/.

I have surpised. The Oszét tribe /Russland/ have a legend, about the magic sword /Excalibur/. The oszét hero called Batradz. Oszét legend exactly= The legend of the Arthur,
Vallus István Big Grin <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt="Big Grin" title="Very Happy" />Big Grin

A sagittis Hungarorum, libera nos Domine
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#12
Edward Burne Jones: The Last Sleep of Arthur in Avalon
Vallus István Big Grin <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt="Big Grin" title="Very Happy" />Big Grin

A sagittis Hungarorum, libera nos Domine
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#13
Burne-Jones never see the Hungarian Saint Crown.

Why's he on our picture?
Vallus István Big Grin <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt="Big Grin" title="Very Happy" />Big Grin

A sagittis Hungarorum, libera nos Domine
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#14
There is actually even less proof of the existence of Uther than of Arthur. He made his first apparences in Welsh litterature and in Monmouth's HRB. There is even a theory that its a mistake from the expression Arthur mab Utr, which can means Arthur son of Uther but also Arthur, terrible son...

And seriously, how can a victorian painting can be a proof for a possible sarmatian origin of Arthur? That's nonsense...

Pendragon means "dragon head", or "head of the dragons", possibly refering to horsemen which used draconarius as enseign. This enseign was of thracian or sarmatian origin but it was adopted by the Romans who pass it to numerous cultures, including the Britons.

"Excalibur" got celtic roots. Its welsh name is Caledfwch, which is the same than the irish Caladbolg, the sword of Fergus mac Roth.


There was probably Sarmatian influence in Britain at some point, either directly or via the Romans, there is even an irish tradition refering to Sarmatians as ancestor of the Dal Riatta tribe. But whole arthurian myth... Shame that theories of this kind bring way more attention from the public than serious studies and true scholarship...
"O niurt Ambrois ri Frangc ocus Brethan Letha."
"By the strenght of Ambrosius, king of the Franks and the Armorican Bretons."
Lebor Bretnach, Irish manuscript of the Historia Brittonum.
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Agraes / Morcant map Conmail / Benjamin Franckaert
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