Mail replaced segmentata? Why?

[RUBICON]

Dear all I am confused and maybe someone can help. Can someone explain when segmentata replaced email after Caesar, then when it was replaced by mail again in the later centuries.

Does this say that even back then in the army, they follow fashion trends or was this a decision based on practical assessment that mail was better?

If dates, and Emperors could be supplied as I am totolly lost from Caesar, Augustus through to Constantine? who was wearing what? And long pants? when did they appear?

Lastly, the cuirass - was it just an emperor thing - metal or thickened leather?

[RUBICON]

Hahahahah not email.....MAIL!

Sorry busy working this morning.....

See how confused I am!

[SOCL]

I am under the impression that the segmentata wasn't an black-and-white, over night change, but rather it was a gradual change over time, hence the change in design from the BCE Kalkriese model to the 2nd Century CE Newstead. It also seems to me that there wasn't so much an overall change as it was, perhaps, only certain units in certain areas, dependent on the needs of the area of operations. In that sense, perhaps segementatas were never a majority over hamata, but this is just how I seem to look at this. I think there are more learned members who can provide better information.

[Tarbicus]

Personally, I never think of seg replacing hamata, but they ran side by side. My own opinion is that the majority of the army being of barbarian stock, after all and sundry were made citizens, they simply continued to use what they were used to while being the vast majority in the army. A century prior and most legionaries would have been auxilia.

[Chuck Russell]

ya mail was used before the seg, during the use of the seg and then long after the seg was rusting in teh sand.

[RUBICON]

So there was no unity in uniform?

Not even when soldiers were handed out armour as opposed to supllying their own?

So in a line, some guys could be in seg and some in hamata?

Or were centuries at least consistent?

[Cornelius Quintus]

Ave Stephano,

see also this old thread about that segmentata / hamata question:

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... ata+hamata

[SOCL]

In regard to uniforms, this seems to be a rather modern concept, and in an army where everything was hand made, I'm sure nothing will be the same. Sure, there are designs and looks to model after, but nothing like what we think of as a military uniform.

As for when the army handed things out, I would think that it would be the old equipment that would be handed out as that would be the easiest to acquire and hold en mass, rather how auxiliae seem to have used hand-me-down legionary kit.

[RUBICON]

I read the thread.

Someone mentioned blunt force resistance was better in segs than mail, as opposed to what?

Has anyone tested resistance to a thrown pila? Is seg penetrable at all versus mail?

Not having worn mail, how resistant is it to a stabbing motion, pila or balista bolt?

OUCH!

[sulla felix]

Rubicon,

I asked the same questions - see this thread

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=14226

However, it seems that there were some experiments carried out in a litle more scientific manner and these are referenced in Mike Bishops Lorica Segmentata Handbook (Vol 1).

[Tarbicus]

Has anyone tested resistance to a thrown pila? Is seg penetrable at all versus mail?

Why would the pilum be an issue? Even given the occasional civil war, is it likely armour would be designed to withstand a typical Roman weapon, or would it be made for more typical barbarian weapons?

[sulla felix]

Tarbicus,

What if one of those nasty barbarian types picked one up and threw it back at you? :lol:

[RUBICON]

Why would the pilum be an issue?



ok ok a spear then? a barabarian one,even arrows....and in the rare case that as sulla suggested, a pilum was leing around and someone threw it back?

:? ? D

[Lusitano]

I dont know if this theory (my theory) is any good but here it goes.

My background is mainly medieval reenactement, only recently have i began roman. But having a couple of years "on the road" with plates and maille, and beeing the "handyman" of the group i tend to repair both plate armor and maille armor.

Maille is very simple to repair, i always have a few extra rings while on events so i can quickly fix any hole or such (we use butted maille), but even if it was rivited maille de process would be identical.

Now when plate armor gets damaged, its a bit mores complicated, i never had a pierced plate but one of the most common plate damages isnt on the metal itself but on the leather straps that support it. The process to repair this usually envolves taking all the rivits of that specific leather strap, removing the strap itself, making a new strap and rivit it again to the plate.
On campaign and without a lot of time a possible repair would be to remove only the "neighbouring" rivits and place a little leather strap in that place. But even so its much harder then repairing maille.

Just my theory, dont know if it is historically accurate, but hope it helps

[Matthew Amt]

Avete!

Wow, Rubicon, I think you win the prize for the most "can of worm" questions in one post! Just teasing, of course, but yeah, dig around and you will find HUGE long discussions on every one of these, often on other forums as well.

Simple answer to the hamata/segmentata question: We don't know! We don't know why the lorica segmentata developed, though it may have been a cost thing. As others have said, mail continued in use for most auxiliaries and many legionaries anyway. Later on, in the 3rd century AD, armor was being made in centralized factories and actually issued to soldiers, and it may simply have been easier to make mailshirts that fit more troops. But yes, never underestimate the power of FASHION.

Armor penetration: Actually shows up as an FAQ on some boards! Again, in short, most armor used in most eras is VERY resistant to the weapons in use. That does NOT mean that an armored man is invulnerable, of course, since there are usually parts of him that are not armored. But generally you are unlikely to be able to actually penetrate the armor with a weapon. Go around it. Yes, plate is better at soaking up impact than mail, but in an era of spears and arrows, that's not all that big a deal. Yes, there are always exceptions and special cases, and some weapons are more likely to go through than others, but I certainly wouldn't bet my life on it in a battle! In any case, your shield is your main defence.

If dates, and Emperors could be supplied as I am totolly lost from Caesar, Augustus through to Constantine?

There are probably a few websites around with a nice list with dates.

And long pants? when did they appear?

Well, trousers first show up in the Early Iron Age, round about the founding of Rome or a little after. But not in Italy, only up in Gaul, Germany, and other "barbaric" areas. By the late Republic, it seems that southern Gauls may have preferred short trousers, while longer ones were used farther north, but that's not a hard and fast rule by any means. (At least 2 pairs of short trousers were found in a Danish bog, for instance.) Roman soldiers were probably wearing trousers in colder areas as soon as they got cold! But they don't seem to be a regular part of the clothing until later in the 2nd century AD. Except for cavalry, who are using short trousers in the first century.

Lastly, the cuirass - was it just an emperor thing - metal or thickened leather?

Hoo, boy, that's a biggy, too! There's a huge long thread on this one, too. Presumably you mean the muscled cuirass (since "cuirass" technically means any body armor). It's very much a Hellenistic fashion generally used by the Roman upper class, including legates and tribunes as well as the Emperor. It dates way back to the early Republic. My feeling is that any muscled cuirass worn in battle was metal (probably silvered or gilded) and would have been quite functional. But there are sculptures, particularly later ones as I understand, that clearly show cuirasses that are soft or flexible. Very wacky, and we're not sure what's going on! I think they're probably portraying "dress" cuirasses that are meant to look the part but not serve as armor. I'm still dubious about the idea of "hardened" leather cuirasses that are meant to be defensive--they'd be just as heavy as metal and more bulky, and wouldn't look as nice and shiny unless you silvered and gilded them! Travis Clark's site is the best on the subject:

http://astro.temple.edu/%7Etlclark/lorica/

That get you started? Read, read, read! And have fun!

Matthew

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/