Marching with Spears and Pila

[Aurelianus]

Here you are

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o127 ... an0001.jpg

[Crispvs]

"I don't have any experience of marching with full pack, but I believe that Legio VI in the US (who do) attach the pilum etc to their furca and have successfully marched that way? "

Oh, I have no doubt that Legio VI USA successfully managed to march that way, just as they have successfully demonstrated that the scutum can be carried horizontally from a strap. It's just that neither of those things are shown in the few surviving representations of the Romans actually marching.

Putting this into context, the surviving sample of images of soldiers in marching order is admittedly, incredredibly small: one of the Mainz column bases showing two soldiers on the march, one of whom carries a signum (?) and the other has a shield slung high on the left shoulder and carries his pilum and helmet on the right shoulder; the well known images from Trajan's column showing soldiers on the march with shields carried around the left shoulder, helmets on the right shoulder and impedimenta poles carried over the left shoulder. No pila survive but the positions on the right hands indicate they were carried over the right shoulder; lastly a soldier from Trajan's arch at Puteoli who carries his pilum over his right shoulder and carries his shield slung on a strap around the left shoulder. To these we might consider adding the stele of P. Flavoleius Cordus, who carries his pilum on his right shoulder and his shield on a strap over the left shoulder. Incidentally, Cordus's grip on his pilum seems to resemble the type of grip most re-enactors use, whereas the Trajan's column soldiers and the Mainz column base use the grip discussed in this thread.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b73/C ... imbase.jpg
http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~galinsky/NEH/picwk3.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b73/C ... zzouli.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b73/C ... cordus.jpg

The various other things carried are listed by Josephus but he does not say exactly how they were carried. The entenching / pioneering tools are not shown anywhere carried on the march but they are too big to be put into a bag so it makes most sense for them to be positioned on the left shoulder with the impedimenta furca so that they can be picked up together and ditched quickly in an emergency.

Crispvs

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Or maybe by Bessialia, the mule?

[Crispvs]

Perhaps, but I think that the mule might already be kept busy carrying the contabernium tent, the quern stone and palisade stakes and the like.

Crispvs

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

And the wagons?

[Magnus]

So it really looks to me that carrying the pila over the shoulder was done when the threat assesment was VERY low, in such circumstances the helmet wasn't worn (thus the neckguard isn't a factor) allowing it to rest near the neck.

[Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs]

Thanks,Aurelianus for the picture. I checked my copy last night and saw they used a grip sometimes like in your picture and some cupped the butt-spike in their palms. All carried their pila much higher than I've seen at events but they weren't wearing segs,either. Someone mentioned pila sliding off shoulders in seg armor which I could see as being dangerous. Carrying it higher would keep the business end further away from others.
It does seem awkward, though, when using the conventional grip, if you need to throw your pilum. For me, the balance is a little off.

[Maximio]

It does seem awkward, though, when using the conventional grip, if you need to throw your pilum. For me, the balance is a little off.

Quite the opposite surely, one would allow the pilum to slide down through ones hand slightly whilst at the same time rotating the wrist as one brings the javelin back and up over the shoulder. The grip portrayes in the ESG pic at the beginning of the thread actually allows for a faster combat preparation.

On the other hand the idea of using Caballo's proposed grip is more useful for an Auxilia to took under his arm in the couched thrusting position.

On the campaign march, whose to say it's probably courses for horses.

[Crispvs]

"And the wagons?"

I don't think the regular squaddies would have had the use of wagons and would have had to do with their own marching packs and what they could get away with adding to their increasingly rebellious and stubborn mule. I think centuriones and above probably had access to wagons possibly pulled by either mules or oxen. The army on the march would also require wagons to transport artillery, spare weapons, metal supplies and foodstuffs for issue to soldiers.

Sorry to take this so far OT.

Crispvs

[Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs]

I suoppse you're right since I hadn't considered my being sinestra(or is it scaeva). The whole right-handed thing is awkward for me to begin with.
No glasses and right handed throwing to boot hock:

[RUBICON]

I think I have found how it was really done!!!

This is how HBO Rome showed it..it must be right!!!!


<------ducks for cover! :lol:

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

:lol: :lol: :lol: 8)

Square Pila shafts as well! :lol:

[RUBICON]

Are the bottom of these HBO Rome pilum where they got the idea to put a spike in the end of a stick to pierce gum wrappers off the ground?

:?

[Caballo]

Square.....hmmmm.... :roll:

Mind you, looking at a number of medieval shafts in the Wallace Collection, a hexagonal shape seems to have been used (rather like an old fashioned tennis racket). I assume that this would be particularly useful where the spear would be used as a thrusting or fencing weapon rather than simply thrown?

Cheers

Caballo