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Marching with Spears and Pila
#16
Won't it slide of the shoulder easily when this is done while wearing a segmentata? When wearing a helmet type with a wide neckguard I also experience problems when putting the shaft on my shoulder.

Is there any scupltural evidence for legionaries carying their pila in the same way as the ESG?

Very interesting and I'll certainly give this method a try!

Vale,
Jef Pinceel
a.k.a.
Marcvs Mvmmivs Falco

LEG XI CPF vzw
>Q SER FEST
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#17
Well, I was thinking it could fit in between the neck and the first large set of shoulder guard plates...but I guess it would depend on the neck guard size.
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
Du Courage Viens La Verité

Legion: TBD
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#18
Quote:Well, I was thinking it could fit in between the neck and the first large set of shoulder guard plates...but I guess it would depend on the neck guard size.

None of the sculptures above show helmeted soldiers though. Perhaps it was a carrying method for when the helmet wasn't worn Smile
Jef Pinceel
a.k.a.
Marcvs Mvmmivs Falco

LEG XI CPF vzw
>Q SER FEST
www.LEGIOXI.be
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#19
Ohhhhh...so more of an "on the march" thing vs going to imminent battle. That would make sense.

But I wonder...if you held the pilum at a shallower angle, so it doesn't go back as far as the neckguard, I wonder if that would work. Though if it's too upgright, then your arm is still taking most of the weight, and that's no good either.
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
Du Courage Viens La Verité

Legion: TBD
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#20
I'm still a bit sceptical about this one, I agree with Magnus that the images are demonstrative of a campaign march rather than a formation in battle, but if one looks at the full version of the metope the Pila are perched precariously "off the shoulder". This would have been so unstable that either the shoulder position or the hand grip must be sculpturally inaccurate.

With regards to the problem of holding the pilum in the "crook position" I do not find it uncomfortable. Indeed the angle and position we tend to hold it in is such that it is a/ very comfortable and b/ there is less chance of it hitting the man behind as it allows for a more upright angle. To hold it over the shoulder would require more of a tilt backwards to give it support.

A few years back we did a march with a number of guests from another more casual unit. I was in the rank behind them and they used a grip not dissimilar to that which Caballo proposes. We were forever trying to avoid the swinging spears flashing in front of our noses.

I also went over all the pics I have of the march across Hadrians Wall and found this rather low resolution shot of the unit crossing the most awkward section of terrain. One can just make out that most men knackered though they were are still holding their Pila in the crook of the arm.

I would also suggest that the traditional manner of holding it gives a certain degree of "swagger" and arrogance to the marching style, so certainly something of a "parade posture".
Vale

Maximio

COH I BATAVORVM MCRPF
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#21
seem to have a point there too Maximio... both times! :lol:

Then again, if you were on a long march, would you not have your pilum/s
lashed to your scutum, otr the carrying t-pole, with more of your gear?
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#22
But can't it be held in place by the inner arm and by the bottom edge? Pikemen must have done it in later years, and puts all of the centre of gravity above the shoulder, thus the weight. I do have a problem with the relief though, as holding it as depicted is not practical at all (just tried both the aforementioned).

If it lazily gets let down towards the man behind, then he should give you a 'gentle reminder'.

Added: hold the hand with forefinger stretching down to the point and the hand 'underhand'.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#23
it is fairly flexible, to be sure... can easily swing it out to smack bothersome peasants and dogs! And my pilum is a bit high to interfer with man behin to be honest Maximio! But other grip is just as comfortable :? roll:
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#24
"Then again, if you were on a long march, would you not have your pilum/s
lashed to your scutum, otr the carrying t-pole, with more of your gear? "

No, Gaius Marcus, of course not. Big Grin You need to put your entrenching tool there. Your (for example) lego, dolabra etc lies along the carrying pole with its head hooking over your left shoulder whilst your pila are carried over the right shoulder.

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers.  :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

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#25
Quote:"Then again, if you were on a long march, would you not have your pilum/s
lashed to your scutum, otr the carrying t-pole, with more of your gear? "

No, Gaius Marcus, of course not. Big Grin You need to put your entrenching tool there. Your (for example) lego, dolabra etc lies along the carrying pole with its head hooking over your left shoulder whilst your pila are carried over the right shoulder.

Crispvs

Oh, I didn't know that. I thought the pila were lashed to that as well.
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
Du Courage Viens La Verité

Legion: TBD
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#26
Frater Crispus,

"You need to put your entrenching tool there. Your (for example) lego, dolabra etc lies along the carrying pole with its head hooking over your left shoulder whilst your pila are carried over the right shoulder. "

I don't have any experience of marching with full pack, but I believe that Legio VI in the US (who do) attach the pilum etc to their furca and have successfully marched that way?


Cheers

Caballo
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aka Paul B, moderator
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#27
Quote:Add. - Roman Military Clothing I - Page 21, 8 & 10 Pompeii frescoes...And, on the previous page, the "Pygmy" Judgement of Solomon frescoe - the middle figure appears to be holding the pilum similar in the Adamklissi sculpture...

and page 13 (D) plus PLATES D & F. Big Grin

Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.

"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.

"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
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#28
I think the pilum don't have to be atached to the furca. In case of a rapid enemy atack, you need your weapon free. So you throw your furca and paenula/sagum, and you can fight normally (except the scutum covers, as Julius Caesar tells in Gallic Wars).
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#29
I have been wondering about this for a while too, as I often see representations of this, but then wonder about the expediency of it!
Perhaps it is just your spares that would be attached to the furca?
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#30
I was also under the impression that the pila were strapped to the furca.
As was already mentioned maybe it was only the spare(s).
If anyone has a copy of Junkelmann's "Legions of Augustus" handy I noticed they also carried their pila much higher than I've normally done.
Not sure about the grip, though. Maybe someone can post a pic from that
or at least check for comparison.
Andy Booker

Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs

Andronikos of Athens
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