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Marching with Spears and Pila
#1
I was looking closely at the Adamklissi metopes (as you do on a rainy Saturday) and I wondered whether we have been holding our spears/ pila wrongly.

This is the classic reenactor hold, here from the ESG at Stoneleigh.
[Image: Stoneleigh5.jpg]

But on the Adamklissi metope, a very different hold is used.
[Image: Adamklissihands.jpg]

http://www.dirtyredcommie.com/gallery/v ... ewsIndex=1
(you'll have to expand to full size to examine closely - top right hand corner of the screen).

Each of the three soldiers holds the hasta/ pilum at the end of the shaft, with the little finger extended. It is clearly not a sculptors mistake- and would have taken more time to do.

A similar hold (though without the little finger extension) is shown on the Mainz pedestals.

[Image: MainzRomanMuseumMainz.jpg]

A quick experiment shows that there is a clear advantage to the hold shown on Adamklissi as it allows the hasta/ pilum to be immediately brought into a fighting stance without having to change the hand grip. (Try it- I was suprised at the practical advantage it gives you). It also has the pilum / hasta extending far higher than with the usual reenactor stance.

Your thoughts?

Cheers

Caballo
[Image: wip2_r1_c1-1-1.jpg] [Image: Comitatuslogo3.jpg]


aka Paul B, moderator
http://www.romanarmy.net/auxilia.htm
Moderation in all things
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#2
Quote:A quick experiment shows that there is a clear advantage to the hold shown on Adamklissi as it allows the hasta/ pilum to be immediately brought into a fighting stance without having to change the hand grip.
Caballo

Salve caballo,

I'm not convinced that it would allow one to go into a fighting stance (for the pila carrying legionaries). They would actually have to reverse the grip to throw them. Although I accept that if one also considers that they would not be able to simply throw their pila from the line of march but would have to change stance (and even possibly formation) then such a reversal would be feasible.

For auxilia who use an underarm thrusting motion with their Hasta then such a hold would be possible. Thinking back to when we did Hadrian's wall, we tended to alternate the hold to whatever was comfortable. I seem to recall the auxilia loping along at the rear of the column in a much looser formation holding the hasta horizontal to the ground. No Optio - no worries.

Another thought on this though would be that the spears held in the metope you have highlighted would be held far higher over the shoulder, and especially with the little finger waving around like a guest at a vicars tea party, then the control over the spear would be much reduced. Lots of room for inadvertent hasta twirling amongst tired troops.

We'll have to experiment at Wrest Park.
Vale

Maximio

COH I BATAVORVM MCRPF
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net/auxilia.htm">http://www.romanarmy.net/auxilia.htm

Pete Noons in a past life
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#3
I was wondering when someone would pick up on that detail! :lol:
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#4
Going back to the first pic with the extended pinkies, that looks like the little finger is used to support or control the butt of the pilum. It seems to me to be one of those little artistic observations from real life.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#5
They are also clearly resting on the neck/shoulder, not on the inside of the upper arm...
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#6
Er, Maximio, your helmet shows signs of tarnish. :lol:
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#7
Thats ok, he's just a Batavian, after all! :lol: :lol:
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#8
I too have contemplated this for some time.

I forget where the image is from, but there is a frescoe of a soldier holding a pilum much like this, in the other hand holding a cup in his palm, he's got a cloak on too.

Add. - Roman Military Clothing I - Page 21, 8 & 10 Pompeii frescoes...And, on the previous page, the "Pygmy" Judgement of Solomon frescoe - the middle figure appears to be holding the pilum similar in the Adamklissi sculpture...
In Connoly Greece and Rome at War - Page 225, Cancelleria/Vatican, the Praetorians in the lower right picture are carrying pila high on the shoulder, but have the hand the other way

This "new" position makes me think of carrying Halberd/Pike in 15-1600's (like DeGhyen's manual of arms) - the polearm being "shouldered" and held with the bottom/right hand cupping the buttspike - the polearm is therefore held quite high on the body.

I've noticed that by carrying the pilum in the "current" way, down low, fingers pointing downwards with the shaft held by the thumb and finger, that sometimes you'll knock your knee with the shaft, sometimes you'll drag the spike on the ground, and it gets uncomfortable trying to keep the shaft pressed against the crook of your shoulder after a while.

This "new" position seems like it would be more comfortable, and would keep the weapons out of the way/preventing people from getting wacked.

I'm certainly going to have to give this a try!

Thanks for finding the pics, hope we find more.
Andy Volpe
"Build a time machine, it would make this [hobby] a lot easier."
https://www.facebook.com/LegionIIICyr/
Legion III Cyrenaica ~ New England U.S.
Higgins Armory Museum 1931-2013 (worked there 2001-2013)
(Collection moved to Worcester Art Museum)
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#9
Quote:Er, Maximio, your helmet shows signs of tarnish. :lol:

Ho Ho Ho, I posed for this one in my back Garden under a pergola. The light has been filtered by the vine leaves growing over it. When I have finished my remade Depeeka Coolus C I shall re do the shot. In splendid gleaming gold (well Brass).
Vale

Maximio

COH I BATAVORVM MCRPF
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net/auxilia.htm">http://www.romanarmy.net/auxilia.htm

Pete Noons in a past life
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#10
Quote:Er, Maximio, your helmet shows signs of tarnish. :lol:

Ah Hah, Thanks to the technical wizadry of Tarbicus I have been chemically enhanced. All traces of Vine induced tarnish have been removed and instead I sport a gorgoeus bronze "C".
Now if only it would work on the wine induced tarnish my head is suffering from ....

Oh and Giaus Marcus, I may only be a Batavian but just remember I often march just behind you in the column so perhaps I should experiment on the problems of tight formations and but spikes :twisted:
Vale

Maximio

COH I BATAVORVM MCRPF
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net/auxilia.htm">http://www.romanarmy.net/auxilia.htm

Pete Noons in a past life
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#11
:lol: :lol: :lol: Yep, I was hoping that comment might prompt you to post a certain picture, but that threat will do!! :o

BTW, I did notice the shiny new gleam to your helmet earlier! :wink:
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#12
C'mon guys, stop discussing poor Pete's facial colour! :twisted:

How about more opinions on carrying pila and hastae? For one, I sometimes have problems with them skidding off my armour, hence balancing them on the upper arm.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#13
Well, I did have a moment at lunt, where the butt spike hit the groud, causing my pilum to do some rather eye threatening acrobatics for a moment, before I got under control again. Seems the over the shoulder method would be more logical for long distance marching, as portrayed on the monument. Also, my still partially paralyzed left hand might be a good reason to have a shoulder strap on my scutum...... Sad ( ? ?:
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Reply
#14
Quote:Thanks to the technical wizadry of Tarbicus I have been chemically enhanced
Hey Tarbicus! Email me a box of that so I can work on the "real" tarnish on my brass, won't you?
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#15
Carrying it the way shown on the Adamklissi monument makes perfect sense. I don't know how many times my arm has dropped, and the buttspike dug into the ground, causing me to flounder. Not to mention having the tip wave around dangerously near someone's face behind you. Seems to me the Adamklissi way will solve both of those problems, and given the balance/weight of the positioning of the weapon I shouldn't be any difficulty to control.
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Magnus/Matt
Du Courage Viens La Verité

Legion: TBD
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