Hoplon ancient method of construction

[Peter Raftos]

A large potters wheel (from a kylix C. 490) could have doubled as a horizontal lathe perhaps ?

[spyros]

A bit of topic, but we were talking with Stefanos yesterday about this thread and the idea came up that could this kind of tech explain the wide use of Pylos during the Peloponnesian war, lack of materials, lack of trained artisans due to battle casualties, ease of construction?

It's a bit farfetched but is there any chance that during the war years the city states were forced into a semi-industrialized production?

Back to topic. I remember once seeing a mural of artisans hammering a shield cover. Has anyone seeing this picture and if yes could you post it?

Could they use both techniques? Hammering the cover into a rough shape and the use turning to get rid of rough spots and wrinkles?

@Peter, great pic. I'm convinced that you are right and that they used Lathes at some point. But how can it be proven?

[Peter Raftos]

The shield of Achilles was hammered and forged into shape, according to Homer's Iliad, by Hephaestos (Homer Iliad Book 18.470-569 )

However,the relief you are talking about is Roman ( maybe late second or early third-century) and can be found here:
http://www.goddessathena.org/Museum/Scu ... lles_f.htm
Another example comes from the 1st century in Pompeii : http://www.theoi.com/image/F7.1Hephaistos.jpg

I have yet to find a Greek example of this scene. These are the main images of him in Greek art :
http://www.theoi.com/image/P13.3Thetis.jpg
http://www.theoi.com/image/P13.4Thetis.jpg

[spyros]

Hmmmm. So that proves nothing about later centuries.

[Peter Raftos]

Yep we need some more good research

[Steve Lenz]

I would say that both method´s (rings and bowls) are possible - in combination.

A bowl dished out of a massive piece of wood or (better) cross-glued layers of thin planks and steam-bowed "tires" for the shield body and shoulder rim, assembled together and shaped to the aspis we know.

The historic correct (or plausible) method of the assembling could be glueing, binding (sewing) or wood-nailing or - i guess - a combination of a few methods.

Dish out the whole aspis from an massive (big) piece of wood needs a (big) piece of wood and a lot of blades. It´s not the question if an lathe was part of the production process! For a phalanx you´ll need a huge number of (big) pieces of wood, a huge number of blades and a huge number of lathes! And a lot of time!

The Coating:

Wood without coating is (tactical) not enough. I would like to plead for a glued textile coating (Linnen) - it was common in this era. The facing then with hardned leather or rawhide (or for the absolute "social elite": bronze), but 2 layers of glued (and painted) linnen are enough.

This construction method makes a very solid shield, able to guard the bearer and crush into the enemy´s frontline.

A massive deep bowl will crack rather!

[spyros]

I've found this site with info about ancient wod lathes. Unforunatelly nothing greek .

http://www.historicgames.com/lathes/ancientlathes.html

[Peter Raftos]

A massive deep bowl will crack rather!

Steve,
This is precisely what happens during the othismos. I think it was in one of Hanson's works where he says:
In the meeting of the pahalanx lines there is a sickening thud as shields meet. Some shields and some spears splinter on that initial contact. He cites contemporary sources but I don't have the reference here.

Spyros,
There is a German site ( which I can no longer find) but it covers Roman lathes. I took the bench lathe photo from it some time last year.

[Tib. Gabinius]

Mean this : http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/uni/ymu/sqh ... rkzeug.htm ?

[Steve Lenz]

Some shields and some spears splinter on that initial contact.

In my opinion - in hypothetical use of the massive construction method - there should mentioned:

"All shields and some spears splinter....

Why only "some"???

[spyros]

Why only "some"???

Mechanics. During the impact due to the dome shape of the shield the majority of the force is transferred to the sides. that is the reason that the argive shields, unlike, say a roman shield, has thick sides and thinner center

[Peter Raftos]

Tobias,
That is a great site but not the one I have lost.

Steve,
A good question indeed. Perhaps some were in better condition or reinforced internally. Unfortunately I don't have the references or nearly enough research.

For those who are interested in lathe work and milling this article should prove interesting [url:3ht3tgf7]http://ancientgreektechnologies.com/book/Temple-Builders.pdf[/url]

It seems lathes were used to turn the drums of stone columns in many temples. The credit for this invention is given by Pliny the Elder (Plinius Secundus 23-79 A.D.) to Theodorus of Samos, but Diodorus Siculuis, the historian, places it at a very remote period of time, as far back as B.C. 1249 Virgil (Virgilius Maro B.C. 70-19) in his works several times mentions "torus" as meaning a turner's wheel or lathe.