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Leiden - disc chape for gladius?
#1
Does anyone have any more info on the round disc chape? As it's amongst 1st C scabbards I assume it's of the same period, which makes it very interesting:

http://www.romancoins.info/b-2005-gladius1.JPG

http://www.romancoins.info/MilitaryEqui ... ttack.html

It doesn't seem to be a later spatha chape because of its construction and detail, but it would be nice to know for sure.

Thanks.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
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#2
Another photo from Exploratio (thanks Matt/Magnus)

http://www.exploratio.org/image_databas ... P5080c.jpg

http://www.exploratio.org/image_database/exploratio.htm

The alloy edging the disc connects to really does seem to follow the shape of a Mainz or Fulham type scabbard.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
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#3
It was found in 1876 in the old Rhine at Leiderdorp.

It is made of silver, including the frame. On one side there is an image of the Emperor Traian and on the other side one of his successor Hadrian. In both cases the full name is inscribed along the edge, so there can be no mistake.
Curiously enough Traian's image is surrounded by a laurel wreath, that of Hadrian is not.



Source:
Maarten Dolmans en Claudia Thunissen, Het oudste Leiderdorp ligt onder je voeten. Leiderdorp uit archeologische en historische bron (Leiderdorp 2002) p. 20
drsrob a.k.a. Rob Wolters
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#4
Thanks Rob, that's a great help Smile

Fascinating piece, given the wide V of the guttering.

Laudes
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
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#5
Does it go with the scabbard directly in line with it? I've always liked the embossing on that scabbard, but thought it strange it had no chape, and also looks short, like part is missing? Is it as thick as it looks, or is it mounted on a piece of plastic which makes it look thick.
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
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#6
Quote:Does it go with the scabbard directly in line with it?
I don't think the pieces fit together. I might be wrong, but it would be nice to see any published material on it.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
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#7
In fact, I'm not sure it's a gladius chape anymore, but a parazonium chape:
http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica ... parazonium
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
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#8
Could be.... but quite small compared to the one in the pic? I like the idea of it being a gladius chape, but I suppose a para is a possibility!
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#9
Quote:
Gaius Marcus:2wouqcw3 Wrote:Does it go with the scabbard directly in line with it?
I don't think the pieces fit together. I might be wrong, but it would be nice to see any published material on it.
The scabberd is not mentioned in the source I used. It must therefore be a separate find.
drsrob a.k.a. Rob Wolters
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#10
It is a separate find, made of silver. No scabbard or anything else was found with it. It is a unique find as it shows that around 120-130 the first round plates were used as endpieces for swordsscabbard, which is much earlier that thought before.

Maarten
Maarten Dolmans

Marcus Claudius Asclepiades

COHORS XV VOL. C. R.
CLASSIS AUGUSTA GERMANICA

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.paxromana.nl">www.paxromana.nl
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#11
Quote:It is a separate find, made of silver. No scabbard or anything else was found with it. It is a unique find as it shows that around 120-130 the first round plates were used as endpieces for swordsscabbard, which is much earlier that thought before.
Sorry, but couldn't this be a parazonium chape, which would have been far more probable than a spatha/gladius chape of that type at this period?
http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica ... parazonium
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
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#12
The so called Parazonium is in some cases a perfect representation of an ordinary Greek sword. There is no evidence that such swords were still in use, other than Hellenistic sculpture. The examples referred to by you look extremely stylized and unrealistic.
Personally I suspect that parazonium did not refer to a special type of sword or dagger, but to a particular way to carry it. That would be diagonally at the left hip. This is similar to the meaning of paludamentum: a cloak draped over the left shoulder and arm.
drsrob a.k.a. Rob Wolters
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#13
Salve Rob,

When you said…

Quote:The examples referred to by you look extremely stylized and unrealistic.

Were you referring to the sculpture of emperors holding the Parazonium short sword? My understating is that the sculptures were painstakingly accurate (aside from sculptures of Gods such as Mars for example), but the living were always showing every wrinkle on the forehead (Pompey), receding hair line and aged sickly appearance (older Caesar), fat double chin (Vitellius), hollow almost emaciated cheeks (Marc Antony) etc… the statues were as real as they could be… why would the artist ‘invent’ that one single aspect of the sculpture?

Perhaps the short sword was not actually worn in battle and only posed with, that’s possible, perhaps it’s style is a more Hellenistic motif as opposed to a typical Roman style, I can’t disagree that he word “Parazoniumâ€
Vale!

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aka_ANTH0NY_C0NGIAN0

My ancient coin collection:
[url:3lgwsbe7]http://www.congiano.com/MyCoins/index.htm[/url]
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#14
Quote:The so called Parazonium is in some cases a perfect representation of an ordinary Greek sword. There is no evidence that such swords were still in use, other than Hellenistic sculpture. The examples referred to by you look extremely stylized and unrealistic.
Personally I suspect that parazonium did not refer to a special type of sword or dagger, but to a particular way to carry it. That would be diagonally at the left hip. This is similar to the meaning of paludamentum: a cloak draped over the left shhoulder and arm.

Rob, are you over-complicating something that is far simpler?
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
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#15
Quote:Salve Rob,

When you said…

Quote:The examples referred to by you look extremely stylized and unrealistic.

Were you referring to the sculpture of emperors holding the Parazonium short sword? [...]
I was specifically referring to the images linked to by Tarbicus.

Quote:Rob, are you over-complicating something that is far simpler?
Am I? I think that these Greek style sword are fairly definite proof that these statues do not depict contemporary, but traditional Hellenistic armour. Over time details of contemporary equipment creep in, but one the whole they are not representations of actually used armour.

Cf. in the 17th and early 18th Century generals were usually painted in full armour, which had not been used in actual combat from the 30 Years War. In the course of time some details of contemporary cuirasses were included, such as a lining that forms an inch wide - usually scarlet - edge along the plates.
drsrob a.k.a. Rob Wolters
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