Late Roman Army - seniores and iuniores

[Robert Vermaat]

I dont deny the army partition of 364 - but the interpretation that Hoffmann draws from that. He goes: in 364 50 elite units of the army were divided between Valentinian and Valens, splitting evry unit in two, naming them seniores and iuniores and giving the first the older, the second the younger brother. Before no seniores existed. All seniores were first in the west.

We both agree about that, then. I think the Hoffmann never knew about the pre-364 evidence, and I agree that his conclusion about seniores-iuniores being invented on the spot is not correct, the system may have been in operation earlier.

Then he makes his assumptions out of that: If the Notitia or any other source shows a seniores in the east, then it was transferrred there after 364.
And this last part - is invalid. If its proven that there were seniores before 364 - and even in the east - then how could you claim about - lets say the Lancearii seniores in the Notitia beein in the east, that they must have originated in the west and could not be formed before 364? Hoffmann creates whole army movements out of that.

Yes, that is now much more difficult to prove. But I still think that the seiores-West and iuniores-East was part of the outcome of that division of 364. That's based on those many lists, that otherwise would be sheer coincidence - I still think Hoffmann has a valid point there. Nevertheless, seniores-iuniores had nothing to do with valens and Valentinian, but may go back on a totally different system. It has been suggested that iuniores were a nucleus of one unit, replenished wityh new recruits. Or maybe it had to do something with East and West after all, I just don't know.

Mind you, even after we know that units had been divided, many sources still fail to mention seniores or iuniores, so much guesswork remains.

So - Hoffmann IS a good book, a MUST HAVE for anyone interested in LRE army organisation. BUT - nearly every single interpretation of Hoffmanns own, when and where a seniores/iuniores unit was created/transfered, has to be seen in the light of his assumptions.
What we need - really need - is an exhaustive list of ALL late Roman unit sources.

AGREED!!

Ioviani/Equites Cornuti seniores: 356 at Nakoleia

No problem there. But of course, we have no idea if this unit had been created in the West or in the East, or where it moved. Maybe it was one of Magnentius' units?

Schola seniores: inscription of Philippi: Viator filius Liciniani protectoris de scola seniore peditum - dated by Drew-Bear (p. 270) as probably earlier than 364.

I can't tell - do you have a copy of that article?

Herculiani seniores: Passio sanctorum Bonosi et Maximiliani, under Julian

I believe that this text was classified as a later one, with the ref. to 'seniores' being anachronistic?

Lancearii seniores: epitaph at Arles, according to O. Seeck not long after the middle of the 4th century.

Which article?