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02-06-2003, 11:30 AM

Salve, 
 
Another book on horses in Roman time by Hyland: 
 
Hyland, A., Equus. The horse in the Roman world (London 1990) 285p. 
 
Also of interest: 
 
Junkelmann, M., Die Reiter Roms I (Mainz 1990). 
Junkelmann, M., Die Reiter Roms II (Mainz 1991). 
Junkelmann, M., Die Reiter Roms III (M ainz 1992). 
 
Regards, 
 
Sander van Dorst

rekirts · 02-06-2003, 04:40 PM

I glanced through the information on the link you provided A Lucretius. From the diagram, it looks like the suspension system though reducing jolting, might increase swaying (which would be tough on those suffering from motion sickness). Of course, I am no engineer, so that is just an uniformed observation. 
 
Someone out there needs to build one of those wagons, take it on a journey, and report back to us on the comfort level or lack thereof. 
 
Wendy

rekirts · 02-06-2003, 04:58 PM

I just looked up "Equus, The Horse in the Roman World" at Amazon.com because UK and CA doesn't have it and it starts at a whopping $85 US, which after s&h and duty etc. would probably run over $150 Canadian. I can see I'm never going to own that book! I may try getting it on inter-library loan, but I don't expect much success. 
 
Wendy

02-08-2003, 09:00 PM

Thanks everybody for the imformation. 
As my knowledge of German is limited to about three words, I don't think Junkelman would be of much help to me Sander. Unfortunately, at $85 Equus is rather out of my budget range too! However, I did notice on checking that Ann Hyland has a recent publication "The horse in the ancient world" which is available in the U.K at a more reasonable price, so maybe I'll get that sent out to me. 
Your link is very interesting Antoninus Lucretius. As you said it has everything including how not to strangle your horse! I really hadn't appreciated just how sophisticated the Roman transport system was. Quite an eye opener. 
I don't know about motion sickness, but I found Caius Fabius' photograph in the end and it seems that someone has actually reconstructed a Roman wagon. There were no comments on the comfort factor though! 
Jackie.

Caius Fabius · 02-09-2003, 01:57 AM

Of course, what would a hard-bitten centurion care about motion sickness (unless maybe his new slave is puking in the back or the wagon). I think the modern comfort zone wouldn't apply to a Roman soldier, much like it didn't apply to modern soldiers. Anything is better than walking, except perhaps riding on a horse for long distances! The important part is getting to the journey's end with the most speed and least hassle. If you take care of your own horse, you have a lot more work every evening and morning. Maybe if you have your slave, and his mule..... 
 
(remembering) 
We used to invite the drugstore cowboys to go for a horse back ride, (usually when their girlfriends were there to make them even more macho). We'd ride for one or two hours, and then dismount, fix some fence, doctor some cattle or something, then start back. You would be surprised at how many of those people would rather walk back! Of course, if they had tight cowboy boots and tight jeans they didn't walk too far, we usually let them ride on the hay trailer, which is a rather rough ride. 
added The haytrailer is on rubber tires, so it wasn't too bad! 
Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=caiusfabius>Caius Fabius</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ROMANISROMANORVM/files/C%20Fabius%201988b.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 2/11/03 1:59:53 am

02-10-2003, 12:02 PM

Well, the horse was described by I don't remember who as an animal which is dangerous at both ends and very uncomfortable in the middle. 
I guess a ride in a roman stage coach was not different from a ride in a 19th century stage coach. The suspension system was about the same. The ride was probably smoother than in the American West since the Romans had surfaced roads. 
Let's face it: comfort in a wheeled vehicle did not come before the advent of the pneumatic tire and the shock absorber. 
I rode on a chuck wagon once on a cattle drive in Wyoming. 
Pure hell. After half an hour of bouncing about on a wooden bench, going along at an incredibly slow pace, I went back to my horse. At least the bouncing had a rythm to it... 
And for me the pleasure of riding about in a wide open space was far greater than the relative pain I endured. 
Actually, the real pain doesn't appear while riding. It's the next morning that it becomes really interesting...

02-10-2003, 08:16 PM

I can think of several ways to describe pain but interesting is not one of them! 
 
"The ride was probably smoother than in the wild west since the Romans had surfaced roads." 
Yeah, but in the wild west they probably didn't have nasty little officials lying in wait to pounce and condemn you to hard labor in the mines for exceeding the weight limit on your wagon!

02-10-2003, 08:37 PM

"Of course what would a hard bitten centurion care about motion sickness-" 
I guess if Horatio Nelson managed to put up with it so could your average hard-bitten centurion! 
 
"Anything is better than walking, except riding long distances." 
Go check out something called 'The Long Riders Guild. com.' Somehow I don't think the guys over there would agree with you. To qualify for their guild you have to cover at least 1000 miles on horseback (in one go!) And that's a mere pittance compared to some of the rides in their record gallery! 
B.t.w. did you notice Antoninus Lucretius' post...the bit about the chuck wagon I mean? 
As for me, I am no long distance rider but I assure you the only times I've walked home after riding 2 or 3 miles are when I have fallen off, not kept hold of the reins, and had no choice because my mount disappeared over the horizon! 
 
Jackie.

**richsc** · 02-10-2003, 09:02 PM

I forgot about the Pony Express: how far could they go over unpaved trails, even exchanging horses every ten miles or so? I think that was at the gallop too. Richard Campbell, Legio XX

rekirts · 02-10-2003, 10:10 PM

There definitely seems to be a difference of opinion here as to whether riding a horse or riding in a wagon would be more comfortable. My only experience horseback riding was years ago and all I remember is that I had about 10 mosquitoes on each ankle the whole time and I was afraid to bend or move my feet to get them off, so my ankles were one big itchy mess by the time the ride was over. 
 
I was looking at something about suspension systems which suggested early suspension systems were more to keep the wheels on the road than for the comfort of passengers and any such comfort was a bonus. 
 
Apparently the Pony Express changed horses every 10 to 15 miles and humans every 75 to 100 miles according to one site I was looking at. 
 
Jackie, I came across that long riders site earlier today 
Pretty interesting. 
 
Wendy

Caius Fabius · 02-11-2003, 01:01 AM

The riding didn't hurt those of us who spent hours a day in the saddle, just killed the drug store cowboys whose firt time on a horse was a couple of miles cross country, then stopping for an hour or so, and trying to get back in the saddle. We covered about 8 miles to 10 miles in two hours, usually. 
 
We just liked to see them walking home in their cool cowboy clothes. They had cool cowboy hats, (we usually wore baseball caps or worn out stetsons), they had silver buckles and silver studded belts, shiny ostrich or snakeskin boots and their skoal can in their new "store faded" jeans. Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=caiusfabius>Caius Fabius</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ROMANISROMANORVM/files/C%20Fabius%201988b.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 2/11/03 7:29:36 am

02-11-2003, 03:28 AM

I don't understand what a drugstore cowboy is. 
 
Wendy, perhaps the question isn't "what method was more comfortable", rather, which would likely have been the chosen method, historically, for your centurion character? 
 
 
Magnus/Matt 
Optio 
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix"

Caius Fabius · 02-11-2003, 06:38 AM

Ahh, a "drugstore cowboy", is like a manikin cowboy. They wear all the pretty "cowboy clothing", fancy boots, hats, belts jeans, and shirts, they dip and spit tobacco, thety can dance the 'two-step" and all the current "in" Country and Western songs. Some can even do rope tricks! They just never have ridden a horse, fixed a fence or worked with cattle. They liked to brag a lot about their riding ability, but their first ride was usually when we brought them along "to help". Another term is "greenhorn". They are the ones you tell to go milk the bull, and to get the extention cord for the branding iron, to make sure the horseshoes have extra laces. But they, like tyros, can learn, if they come back after the first day. 
 
 
"Just before class started, I looked in the big book where all the world's history is written, and it said...." Neil J. Hackett, PhD ancient history, professor OSU, 1987

rekirts · 02-11-2003, 05:34 PM

You are right, of course, Tiberius, but I doubt if there is any definitive answer. It must depend on the purpose of the trip and how fast he needs to get there because a wagon would have to be slower than a horse. So...if he was in a big hurry and wanted to travel light, I would expect him to ride a horse. If he was transporting a bunch of stuff, no matter what the hurry, he would take a wagon. If there was no hurry and he was travelling light, I suppose he could take either. I am still considering the possibilities. 
 
Also I wasn't sure that he would take his slave on official business, but if that is normal, then it works for me--opens a whole new aspect to that part of the story. 
 
Wendy

02-11-2003, 09:35 PM

Yeah, and don't forget his girlfriend! He has to find transport for her too. 
 
As with so many topics discussed here, you have to make do with what you have, and go with what you think is right. (I know I do ) 
 
Magnus/Matt 
Optio 
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix" Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=tiberiuslantaniusmagnus@romanarmytalk>tiberius lantanius magnus</A> at: 2/11/03 10:35:55 pm

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