Copper-Alloy Frame Pugio Scabbard

[Gaius_Calvus]

Avete,

Well, I know I am going to stir up the pot here, but I have been scratching my head over this for some time. :?

I have commissioned a frame pugio scabbard very similar to the Titelberg reconstruction found in this article:

L. Vanden Berghe, M. Simkins "Construction and Reconstruction of the Titelberg Dagger" JRMES, 12/13, 2001/2, 75-85

I got my inspiration from the excellent thread started by Cesar on "How to Build a Pugio." Laudes to you for that, frater. :wink:

I have read the article, and understand the original was made of iron. I have also consulted the bevy of experts out there -- Peronis among them (and laudes to you too, frater) on this topic and have been told, quite correctly, I am sure -- "stick with the iron frame, Edge."

But, I can't help asking the question: Why were many of the gladius scabbards from the same period made of copper-alloy frames, but iron was used for those of pugiones? Why could not a frame scabbard from this period also be of copper-alloy? If there were copper alloy-framed pugio scabbards, why are they not more common in the archeological record?

It baffles me. :roll:

All I can think of is the following.

1) Copper alloy (then and now, dog-gone it) was more expensive than iron, which was relatively cheap.

2) A copper alloy item such as this one was much less likely to be simply discarded when no longer useful, and thus salvaged for its metallic content.

3) For the same reason, an iron item is more likely to be discarded because it was cheaper to produce.

If this subject has already been beaten to death, mea culpa and somebody point me in the right direction to that old thread and I'll shut up about it and be happy with my iron-framed pugio scabbard. :lol:

Thanks, Brothers.

Edge

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

Edge,

The answer it's dificult. The iron frame sheaths probably follows the tradition of iberian ones. In fact, the iberian weapons scabbards are almost universally of iron: falcatae, straight swords. When the romans copied the gladius hispaniensis, they copied too the iron frame, as shows the Delos sword.

Iron frames are dificult to find in archaeology. If the iron it's very thin, it corrodes easily and it's often to desintegrate completely. It could explains the low number of segmentata plates, for exemple.

Copper alloy it's easier to reutilize, because you can fuse it very easily, unlike the iron.

Another thing regarding the frames sheaths. It's dificoult to indetify such kind of scabbards, if there are'nt complete. If you find a chunk, you probably only can say it's a U-profiled metal part, but you can't be sure if it origianlly was a sword frame, a pugio frame, of another kind of militar or civil stuff.

So, if you ask me there are copper alloy frame pugio scabbard, probably the question is not.

But if you ask me, if it might have existed, the answer is "why not?".

The final desition is yours.

Thanks for your compliments!

[Gaius_Calvus]

Cesar,

I thank you for your thoughtful answer. 8)

As with all of your posts, it makes very good sense.

Edge

[Matthew Amt]

A few other things to keep in mind is that gladii and pugiones never seemed to have "matched" at all. Blades, hilts, and scabbards were always constructed in their particular fashions, no matter how needlessly complicated, with practically no overlap in method. Sword hilts were simply not constructed like dagger hilts, for instance. Even the methods and motifs used to decorate the scabbards are completely different. So you can't really use gladius scabbards as a guide to pugio scabbards.

As Cesar pointed out, there are definitely at least a few surviving iron sword scabbards. But tons of iron dagger scabbards, with only very few copper alloy ones! So regardless of theories about survivability and recycling of different materials, I'd say we're probably looking at a realistic sample.

That said, I'd have to agree that a brass pugio scabbard is not out of the question, in fact I think I remember a reference to one in the Exeter report (have to look that up, though). On the other hand, as usual, it is indeed always best to stick to the known examples. Meaning iron! After all, if you hear a vague reference to a brass pugio scabbard frame, and have one made, and then find out that the original does exist but is completely different from what you've got, you'll be mad, right?

Avoid stress! And never ask "Why?" It only keeps you awake at night.

Matthew

[Gaius_Calvus]

Matt,

All great points, as usual.

I guess I have another question, then.

In "Roman Military Equipment," B&C show only one example of a frame scabbard for either the Republican or Imperial period -- that of the subject of the artile above: Titelberg -- although they imply in the section on the Republican period that frame scabbards were the norm in the 1st century BC, and that a surviving Spanish example is "closely matched by a 1st-Century AD sheath from the legionary base at Exeter."

What other frame scabbards exist from the late 1st-C BC and/or early 1st-C AD? What were they made of? Were they all of iron?

Appreciate the help.

Edge

[Crispvs]

Edge,

Iron frame dagger sheaths are known from Titelberg, Exeter, Tarent and Dangstetten, the last in fragmentary condition. Off the top of my head I can't think of any others, although I will check when I get home. There are a number of good tombstone representations of them too, although these offer no clues as to materials.
As Matthew has said above, brass dagger sheaths are known from Leeuwen and Nijmegan, one of type 'B' and two of type 'A', showing that brass sheaths certainly existed, but there is currently no positive evidence that I am aware of of brass frame type sheaths in this period.

Crispvs

[Gaius_Calvus]

Appreciate it, Brothers.

Thanks to the great responses you all provided as well as a kind note from Mike Bishop (and a little research on my own), I have finally gotten it through my thick head that the only examples we have of frame scabbards were iron.

So, much obliged to everyone for their help and patience!

Edge