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Share Your Greek Artwork
Yes,i'm saying that all this is patina,due to time,simply because this is what happens if you burry or even just let a bronze item for some years. Far fewer than 2500! Archeologists never clean out the patina of the bronze,because the patina is part of the item itself,not soil or other organic stuff. As i'm saying that the ancients were polishing ,and did their best to maintain it, their armour. The wall paintings i posted are from the 5th century bc. And all the coloured scenes we have of bronze-armed men in antiquity shows a bright yellow bronze.You can't just say that just for the period of the corinthian helmet they might haven't been polishing thier helmets"! As for corinthians,there are vases that show them painted with a white-yellow paint!! But in all the thousants of vases i have seen,i don't remember of one corinthian helmet shown darker that skin colour in redware pottery!
You are right,of course bronze is copper/tin alloy,and yes,ancient bronze seems to be low tin around 10%. Don't forget they had to raise those helmets!
The modern notion to add this patina on every bronze item we make is just that: a modern notion. All sculptures today have a patina,just because they imitate the ancient ones in the state they are today. Also because nobody today wishes to be polishing and repolishing statues. Actually the evidence is that in antiquity all the bronze statues were polished.
And yes,some of these statues have happened to spend most of their time till today in conditions good enough to make them have a nice patina that didn't ruin the surface.
Xenophon himself though says that the Spartans preffered covering htier shields in bronze,because they are easily polished. Of course a patina doesn't need polishing!
So just accept the evidence,or show some real counter evidence. When we don't know everything,we rather stick to the evidence we have rather than invent new theories fron scratch. And even less,criticise those that do follow the evidence.
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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I'm not sure this rises to the level of "art", but I made a bunch of wooden swords for my son that I thought might interest some. I blew up images of actual swords and simply traced them-except for the little khopis on the right, which is imaginary. Even though they are wood, they handle very interestingy. The Khopis almost begs the hand to chop!
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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Hah! NICE! I would have loved these when i was in the age of your son(who is fortunately much younger than me). In fact,i'd love these even now :lol: Perhaps rounding a bit the edges would make them a bit more safe,no?
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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Quote:Perhaps rounding a bit the edges would make them a bit more safe,no?

Safe? He's a little Spartan. If they were dull how would he kill that fox under his shirt? (Good thing my wife doesn't read this!)

Glad you like them, they are fun to play with.

Paul
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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Nice! That is something that falls more into the category of "Martial Artistry"! Big Grin
Craig Bellofatto

Going to college for Massage Therapy. So reading alot of Latin TerminologyWink

It is like a finger pointing to the moon. DON\'T concentrate on the finger or you miss all the heavenly glory before you!-Bruce Lee

Train easy; the fight is hard. Train hard; the fight is easy.- Thai Proverb
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Paul pieces are indeed beautiful.Good job.It is good news kids still like to play with those.

Giannis,

Above everything else is there even the ancient term that says "highly polished"?

Than there are levels of polish,oiling and care. Even the low polished(quite probable choice for something that is used in war,not in art gallery) or even unpolished bronze including darkest ones like "bell metal" will shine/glow even under sun,just as nice. Even if they are not so spheric,smooth and regular in
shape as helmets or breastplates (And the shape and smoothness of all panoply parts itself are enough for a nice clear sun shine and reflection,plus some reasonable polish level are enough and safe,read on...).

It should be noted that every polishing removes certain amount of metal itself, taken the days it is needed for the new surface to form on such highly polished, unprotected highly polished metal which is so exposed(unlike lower polish levels), you would be looking at well over 0.5mm of actual metal removed for a years of constant use.
And for a helmet that is 1-2mm thick in the first place,which is supposed to defend your head against severe blows, it does not seem logical removing so much metal. For a sake of what? doubtful beauty.

Now I am not saying this as Aleksandar Nikic,I am no authority in this field,I had to consult..keep in mind.

Also with many of them being repaired,quite roughly, something just does not add up style wise,with your picture of very highly polished armor/ with huge crude patches,possibly unpolishable.But this one is just my opinion,not the fact.

All best

Also,since it supposed to be you last attempt to warn me not to question reenactors.This discussion really does not need to continue.I said enough facts to make people think.And changing your personal views is neither possible nor I have any interest in doing that,nor the time by the way. And I say this in the politest of ways.
Aleksandar Nikic

????? ?????? ???? ??????????? ?????????? ? ???? .....
..said the 143 kg stone,for a testimony of still unseen feat of strenght.
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The word for highly polished is "???????????". Xenophon in the spartan constitution says: "??? ?????? ??????: ??? ??? ??????? ??????????? ??? ??????????? ??????????." meaning "and bronze shield: for both it quickly gets polished and it slowly tarnishes." obviously meaning that it needs repolishing and cleaning,but it's easy to polish it quickly(especially if you have a helot doing it for you) and i bet it tarnishes slower than rawhide,since we have bronze shield faces in good condition even today! Patinized bronze doesn't need repolishing. Have you seen anyone polishing statues regularly? In the greek literature there are numerous indications that armour had to be polished and repolished. The supposition that polished armour wasn't practical is illogical since armour through the ages was in most occasions polished. Not to mention that an archaic or early classical armour would very seldom see regular use!
Similarly to the armour preservation, you will find the exact range of patinae on bronze mirrors. And surely all of them meant to be highly polished once!

Anyway,we must agree to disagree. My warning though wasn't towards stopping to criticize re-enactors! Nor stop having your own views of course! There are many things re-enactors could and should be criticized about. But as you see,i didn't quote re-enactors in any of my posts. What i'm saying is that you can have your own views of course, and some may be assumptions as we all make our own assumptions,but you can't hottly criticize re-enactors for something that is only your assumption,without offering some evidence. And no,i don't consider museum photos of helmets with a fine patina as evidence.
On my part,i did support this particular practice of most re-enactors to polish their bronze equipment and i offered my evidence,both artistic and literally. And there is more of it,if you ask for it.
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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[Image: hoplite-background.jpg]

This was painted for me by my friend Karl Kopinski. It is used as the cover for my plastic hoplite set.
Stephen May - <a class="postlink" href="http://www.immortalminiatures.com">www.immortalminiatures.com
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This proves that even highly polished bronze can look petrifying and can strike fear into the hearts of the enemies. The bronze colour could have been slightly more red, but excellent job otherwise. Is this the full-sized picture? If not, can you provide the full-sized version? Thanks Smile
Juraj "Lýsandros" Skupy
Dierarchos
-----------------------
In the old times, people were much closer to each other. The firing range of their weapons simply wasnt long enough Smile
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That's a really nice painting! Is it done with traditional media or computer graphics?

By the way, thanks for the very interesting discussion on the colour of bronze. That kind of stuff is good food for thought for an artist. Keep it up! Cheers,

Nikias
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Here's a new one.... based on Alexandrian era hoplites.
As before, Oil on paper.
[Image: ClassicalGreekHoplites.jpg]
Stephen May - <a class="postlink" href="http://www.immortalminiatures.com">www.immortalminiatures.com
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Great painting!!!
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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Those paintings really look alive! The different positions of the feet, shields, arms, etc, is something I really look for in art. Even the levels of the spears and such is great. Nice porcupine(my personal slang for Phalanx)!
Craig Bellofatto

Going to college for Massage Therapy. So reading alot of Latin TerminologyWink

It is like a finger pointing to the moon. DON\'T concentrate on the finger or you miss all the heavenly glory before you!-Bruce Lee

Train easy; the fight is hard. Train hard; the fight is easy.- Thai Proverb
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Quote:Nice porcupine

Hey, there are no porcupines in Greece! Hedgehog! As in: "The fox has many tricks, but the hedgehog one good one." The phalanx is a pretty good trick Smile
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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Quote:
Quote:Nice porcupine

Hey, there are no porcupines in Greece! Hedgehog! As in: "The fox has many tricks, but the hedgehog one good one." The phalanx is a pretty good trick Smile

I know but the hedgehog is too small! Porcupines are much bigger and thus more intimidating! :lol:
Craig Bellofatto

Going to college for Massage Therapy. So reading alot of Latin TerminologyWink

It is like a finger pointing to the moon. DON\'T concentrate on the finger or you miss all the heavenly glory before you!-Bruce Lee

Train easy; the fight is hard. Train hard; the fight is easy.- Thai Proverb
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