Feathers in the early 2nd century....

[Tarbicus]

I don't see that happening on this sculpture though :?

Surely the rest of the 'plume' would be depicted along with whatever is supporting the plume. After all, we see the support for the little 'brush' crests on the same monument.

You're assuming it's a long plume, but we have examples of brush crests that I posted earlier, and they're more like the size of floor scrubbing brushes.

Imagine a plume eight or ten inches long starting at the front cross brace, tied to the cross bracing at the back of the apex, behind the transverse cross brace..

[Peroni]

IMHO I think we tend to take what is presented on TC at face value too easily. I would (personally) try and go with the archaeological record if it's available, and in the case of the cross-braced helmets, it is.

For instance, the auxilia on the Column aren't wearing any belts. Ever tried to function in mail thats unbelted? let alone have a baldric loose! :?

We also know from the archaeological record that cavalry wore totally different helmets to the ones depicted on the Column. These are shown to be the same helmets as the infantry :?

[Tarbicus]

IMHO I think we tend to take what is presented on TC at face value too easily. I would (personally) try and go with the archaeological record if it's available, and in the case of the cross-braced helmets, it is.

For instance, the auxilia on the Column aren't wearing any belts. Ever tried to function in mail thats unbelted? let alone have a baldric loose! :?

Good point, and I really don't put any stock anymore in the Columns. But, not having an academic career to worry about and not getting embarrassed easily, it's worth at least talking about (on my part, that is :wink: ).

However, I get the feeling that little plumes are a far more reasonable explanation than stupid rings that have only been seen in Victorian fakes so far for that campaign in particular.

[Magnus]

Yeah, but what do you do when there is no archaeological record to support it?

Also, what are the chances that the 4 helmets that have been found are just plain old rank-and-file soldier's helmets? Probably better than those of officer's helmets.

If by your reasoning Adrian, when you say "For instance, the auxilia on the Column aren't wearing any belts. Ever tried to function in mail thats unbelted? let alone have a baldric loose!" that means then, that logically the officers would still have need of something to distinguish themselves that was higher and easier to see over a bunch of helmeted people. Crests were still in use all the way into what, the early 4th century, if not later? There's no reason to say then that crests were abandoned based on only 4 helmets out of the how many hundreds that would have been worn by officers during that campaign and in later times (if we trust the dating on the Hebron Helmet to about 150 AD, then bracing was used much later than this Dacian Campaign).

If the auxilliaries were indeed using some type of adornment on their helmets, and over their crossbracing, why wouldn't the legions?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

The first photo you showed in that thread has something definate in the center of the ring Jim! Possibly the holder? :?

http://cheiron.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~ ... 3.59.h.jpg

one or two of the others seem to too, but not as definate. They actually look like the ring curling like you suggest. Then the one with the cross bracing which shows the ring under the bracing. This is a lot of possibility on one fell swoop. :?

Perhaps the Dacian's didn't like pork, and they thought pig tail crests would deter them from taking a whack at their heads with the Falx? JBPD here!

[Chuck Russell]

On closer examination, and smoothing out the noise:

itsa topknot or a WV cowlick like PAulus has

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Actually........ its their Doughnut..........

they carried their food around on their helmets!

M.VIB.M.

[Magnus]

Yeah, but what about the seagulls eating their doughnuts?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Thats what the cross bracing is for! :lol: :lol:

[Tarbicus]

More definite crests:
[url:55cghau5]http://cheiron.mcmaster.ca/~trajan/images/hi/5.29.h.jpg[/url]

Also, look at the Roman to the far left's helmet 'ring' and the way it's been drawn. :wink:

The corresponding photo:
[url:55cghau5]http://cheiron.mcmaster.ca/~trajan/images/hi/2.33.h.jpg[/url]

Now, this one is a far more detailed part of the Arch of Constantine - think that's a metal ring or not?
[url:55cghau5]http://cheiron.mcmaster.ca/~trajan/images/hi/6.35.h.jpg[/url]

Arch of Constantine again, clearly showing a feather plume:
[url:55cghau5]http://cheiron.mcmaster.ca/~trajan/images/hi/6.37.h.jpg[/url]

Another TC helmet 'attachment':
[url:55cghau5]http://cheiron.mcmaster.ca/~trajan/images/hi/3.59.h.jpg[/url]

[Peroni]

Why do we not see anything like this on the Adamklissi metopes?

Maybe because the artists had first-hand access to actual equipment being used at the time, not some rough sketches to work from some years later.

For the actual Dacian campaign kit I'd always refer to this monument rather than the Column.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

That one on Arch of Cons. is quite detailed! A combination of metal and something else?
Perhaps the centurion crest we are looking for? Def something more intricate than the others! Just a thought!

OK! :oops: He's on a horse! A decurion then?

[Tarbicus]

I've said earlier that I put no stock in the Columns. But, if the rings are actually meant to represent plumage, not hangers, then it should be discussed within the context of the columns themselves. I'm not saying it's how the helmets actually were in real life. Being an atheist doesn't mean I can't enjoy Ben Hur.

[Peroni]

That one on Arch of Cons. is quite detailed!

Agreed, but this monument is made up from recycled sculpure from Hadrian and Marcus Aurelius' monuments. Not really relevant to the Dacian wars period. :wink:

if the rings are actually meant to represent plumage, not hangers, then it should be discussed within the context of the columns themselves

Yes. point taken. Can we get more close-up detailed photos of these 'rings/plumes' to back-up the original picture that has been highlighted?

[Peroni]

I found this strange thing... The man is wearing segmented armour..and what appears to be a donut!
http://cheiron.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~ ... /1.6.h.jpg

and this that is definately a ring, not a curled 'something else'
http://cheiron.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~ ... 2.50.h.jpg

http://cheiron.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~ ... 3.59.h.jpg