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Overhand stab
#16
I have no problem with the target and angle of attack - as mentioned it is one used by gladiators ( http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/enc ... achus.html ). I agree the pommel looks like that of a sword. However, looking at the mosaic of the gladiators, they are clearly holding the sword in the usual way, and have turned their thumbs downwards to attack (each has his elbow pointing upwards).

Are there other clear images of a sword held thumb on pommel?

If the attack is with sword held with thumb on/beside the pommel, when did the attacker reverse his grip? Either he started the fight that way, in which case I would hope there was other evidence of this novel fighting technique (I have seen it shown once in medieval combat, when a man was about to throw his sword).

Or he switched his grip during the fight. Now, while that may not be so difficult to do, if you are doing it in close combat you are taking time to perform a move which neither protects you nor threatens the opponent. Generally, I have the impression that if you are in touching range (with your hand, not the outstretched tip of a sword) of an enemy in combat, it is not a good thing to waste time doing anything which doesn't directly threaten him, or guard you. (George Silver wrote about this in discussing the Time of the Hand, and conventional wisdom among martial artists regarding knife fighting is similar: "the winner is the guy who makes it to the hospital" - it is very quick and very easy to hit and get hit). So, why spend time switching the grip before striking?

For those who have sparred with a sword in a reverse grip: aside from novelty/surprise value, what advantage does it give in combat?
Felix Wang
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#17
Quote:Or he switched his grip during the fight. Now, while that may not be so difficult to do, if you are doing it in close combat you are taking time to perform a move which neither protects you nor threatens the opponent. Generally, I have the impression that if you are in touching range (with your hand, not the outstretched tip of a sword) of an enemy in combat, it is not a good thing to waste time doing anything which doesn't directly threaten him, or guard you. (George Silver wrote about this in discussing the Time of the Hand, and conventional wisdom among martial artists regarding knife fighting is similar: "the winner is the guy who makes it to the hospital" - it is very quick and very easy to hit and get hit). So, why spend time switching the grip before striking?

For those who have sparred with a sword in a reverse grip: aside from novelty/surprise value, what advantage does it give in combat?

I think that we must think of a few aspects here!

Where in the relief does it show that they where in touching range all the fight. One of the main issues in hand to hand combat in a duel situation is distance and the ability to control the distance. The german medieval manuals gives three ranges or zones in a duel.

* 1. Zu fechten, "lit. To the fighting".
* 2. Krieg, "lit. War or Struggle"
* 3. Ringen am Swerde/Degen/Messer, "lit. Wrestling with
Sword/Dagger/Knife or other weapon of the fight.

What do they mean here then? Well, one of the interpretation we have chosen to use is as follow. The first zone is Zu Fechten and this is when you are one step from striking range. You can choose to stay in this range for a longer or shorter time. It´s your superior skill as a fighter that gives you the control here, if you are able to make the opponent to follow you. How far is this then between the combatants? It depends of course on the combined length of the weapons used added to the length of your personal reach. With a gladius against a falx of the size shown in the depicting discussed here I would say around 3 - 3,5 meters.

As soon as you step into attack range you are in Krieg, the second zone. Here you can go for a lethal attack at any given moment and so can your opponent. Here the defence is your point of your sword and your defensive weapon if you have any. (The shield explaines itself in some ways and I will not take it up right now). If you go for a defincive action in this zone you need to stay with a possition where every move of your opponent puts him in danger of geting hit. He will do the same so you could call it a kind of terrorbalance. The thing that often happens in this zone is what the Manuals refer to as binden (bind, catch or hold). This is the contact between the blades, where you feel (fhülen) what your opponent wants to do.

The third zone is Ringen (wrestling) where you are in the range to grab, throw or trip your opponent. suprisingly many bouts in our sparring ends here. This is the range I think you are refering to.

So! I can agree with you that in the second and third zone it can be hard to change grip but in the first it is easy. Out in the first you control the fight with your positioning so your hands are quite free to do much. It is also possible to change grip during the progression between the zones when your opponent is reacting to what you do. It is also possible to change your grip when you have a lock of some sort on your opponent after you have taken control of the third zone.

The advantage of the changed grip is not so much the novelty of it as much as the added force you can put into a stab. in a "reversed" grip the force of the circular motion, the swing is placed in the point of your weapon. Thats the advantage. It is the choise of grip for the more agile fighter who is cofindent enough to get into grapling range fast and "safe".

This is my groups interpretation of this based on the research done by ARMA and other WMA groups we have had contact with. I know the terms and concepts have german names and is from the medieval times but the basic principals of duel fighting is the same in any period. Any of you millitarys here will (hopefully) agree that one could describe a bayonette or knife combat situation in this concepts too.

In a multifighter situation the range of Zu Fechten is much greater and most of the control there is lost due to confusion and the relative chaos in the nature of a warsituation. And the more advanced grappling is also to dangerous in a battle.

Hope this helps!
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#18
Excellent! We have common terminology.

I agree, that in zu fechten range, switching the grip would be practical, as you are in no immediate danger. I can see that it would allow a strike of great power, at a cost (it seems to me) of significantly limiting your choices of attack - basically a thrust vom tag or from the side in the same fashion.

What intrigues me is that using this reverse grip also alters the range of the Krieg. Your reach with the sword in a conventional grip is noticeably longer than with a sword in reverse grip; this would seem to alter the dynamics of the fight, possibly putting you at a disadvantage.
Felix Wang
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#19
Is it just me, or is there another guy laying on the ground in the lower right of that picture? Looks to me like it's the chaos of battle, with the legionary getting in behind a Dacian and giving him the goods...probably a killing blow they were taught perhaps.

It's war guys, anything goes eh?
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
Du Courage Viens La Verité

Legion: TBD
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#20
Quote:For those who have sparred with a sword in a reverse grip: aside from novelty/surprise value, what advantage does it give in combat?

In my experience, a down-turned grip is valuable when fighting with two weapons because of the added defensive ability. But this is when using a "zone defense" so I'm not sure if it would work with other styles. Fighting with a single weapon, this would be nearly suicidal.

Sadly, the down-grip also limits your attack options and is usually not as maneuverable, so the surprise factor is small at best. I only use it against inexperienced fighters and those that have allowed themselves to fall into a set defense pattern.
Globuli Non Ludibrii

-- Felix Canus_____
-- Cedric Einarsson
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#21
I dont think this is an full blown attack situation....... more of an aftermath....

M.VIB.M.
Bushido wa watashi no shuukyou de gozaru.

Katte Kabuto no O wo shimeyo!

H.J.Vrielink.
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#22
Quote:Excellent! We have common terminology.

I agree, that in zu fechten range, switching the grip would be practical, as you are in no immediate danger. I can see that it would allow a strike of great power, at a cost (it seems to me) of significantly limiting your choices of attack - basically a thrust vom tag or from the side in the same fashion.

I agree!

Quote:What intrigues me is that using this reverse grip also alters the range of the Krieg. Your reach with the sword in a conventional grip is noticeably longer than with a sword in reverse grip; this would seem to alter the dynamics of the fight, possibly putting you at a disadvantage.

Yes of course, and it is not recomended to do if one does not have training in the technique and don´t feel sure of it. On the other hand I dont recomend fighting with blades in ernest and anger at all, people could get hurt. Wink
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#23
I have used the reverse grip to great effect in simulated competetive combat... both with a "gladius" and a "pugio"

Even though the relief depicts two men engaged there are times when the press of bodies gets so tight that a thrust becomes difficult or impossible..... sometimes the gladius is too long! to thrust with, either from the hip or straight out at shoulder height.. no room to draw back and stab.

There have been times when dropping the gladius and drawing the pugio was warranted and then very effective.. stabbing opponents in the face or shoulders

In the picture you can get a small sense of how tight the battlepress can become. That's me in the B/W cresta just to the right of the fellow in the blue tabbard. At this point we are driving forward over a scattered layer of "dead" opponents. A couple of Spartans have tripped and fallen to their knees near the front

http://spartanwarband.com/gallery/Estre ... oes_Bridge

A similar topic came up some time ago...?
Hibernicus

LEGIO IX HISPANA, USA

You cannot dig ditches in a toga!

[url:194jujcw]http://www.legio-ix-hispana.org[/url]
A nationwide club with chapters across N America
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#24
It's hard to see where the Legionary's thumb is positioned in the sculpture - If he's holding it like the line drawing that Matthew provided, this to me looks like a "typical" thrust with the Ox/Ochs position that's evident in Medieval/Renaissance manuals - and also looks like a Gladiator sculpture I've seen but can't reference off the top of my head - showing a Gladiator coming over his shield and stabbing downwards - this is a terrifically effective technique.

The original sculpture looks like the Legionary allowed the Dacian with the Falx to come through his attack ~ the Roman has evaded the blow entirely to his right side, and has now come over and downwards onto the Dacian with the above described thrust - Too bad for the Dacian.

If the Legionary is instead holding the gladius, so his thumb is on the pommel (hence, holding it "point down"), I still see this as an effective technique ~ If the Roman keeps his arm high (like in the Ox/Ochs guard, with the hilt next to his cheek), or behind his shield, it still looks possible to allow the Dacian to come in with a powerful downwards attack, and the Roman simply evading and thrusting downwards rather than upwards, this could also help protect his arm/hand from the Falx. By holding it this way, I think it would help "pull" the enemy downwards to the ground with the gladius firmly buried in the enemy's body, reducing his chance of getting back up anytime soon.

By having the gladius "point down" I can also see this helping to relieve strain on the wrist and arm, as opposed to holding it "normally" in Ochs guard / Point "up" - which can be straining after a few moments with a one-handed weapon, as it twists the wrist and arm in an awkward angle.
Andy Volpe
"Build a time machine, it would make this [hobby] a lot easier."
https://www.facebook.com/LegionIIICyr/
Legion III Cyrenaica ~ New England U.S.
Higgins Armory Museum 1931-2013 (worked there 2001-2013)
(Collection moved to Worcester Art Museum)
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#25
Quote:I have used the reverse grip to great effect in simulated competetive combat... both with a "gladius" and a "pugio"

Even though the relief depicts two men engaged there are times when the press of bodies gets so tight that a thrust becomes difficult or impossible..... sometimes the gladius is too long! to thrust with, either from the hip or straight out at shoulder height.. no room to draw back and stab.

There have been times when dropping the gladius and drawing the pugio was warranted and then very effective.. stabbing opponents in the face or shoulders

In the picture you can get a small sense of how tight the battlepress can become. That's me in the B/W cresta just to the right of the fellow in the blue tabbard. At this point we are driving forward over a scattered layer of "dead" opponents. A couple of Spartans have tripped and fallen to their knees near the front

http://spartanwarband.com/gallery/Estre ... oes_Bridge

A similar topic came up some time ago...?

I agree fully with this!
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#26
Quote:In my experience, a down-turned grip is valuable when fighting with two weapons because of the added defensive ability. But this is when using a "zone defense" so I'm not sure if it would work with other styles. Fighting with a single weapon, this would be nearly suicidal.

Sadly, the down-grip also limits your attack options and is usually not as maneuverable, so the surprise factor is small at best. I only use it against inexperienced fighters and those that have allowed themselves to fall into a set defense pattern.

Well said and i totally agree with you, although in my experience, the suprise factor can be quite great. It is hard to judge the reach of a blade in down-grip, especially when one is somewhat covering the length of the blade with his arm.

Quote:For those who have sparred with a sword in a reverse grip: aside from novelty/surprise value, what advantage does it give in combat?

The technique also comes in very handy when you're fighting with someone who uses kicks (block his kick and he has a nasty wound to his leg) but this is more in the field of eastern martial arts.
In a roman battle line, i do not think the technique will be of great use if you still have your scutum (defense enough). But as a finishing technique or when you have lost your scutum i would certainly use it.
Mike van der Linden

You are not a busy man, you make of yourself a busy man.....
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#27
Quote:In a roman battle line, i do not think the technique will be of great use if you still have your scutum (defense enough). But as a finishing technique or when you have lost your scutum i would certainly use it
-- Mike van der Linden

I wish I had a photo of us using the technique in Roman kit when we used to fight as Romans in the SCA. Let me assure you that it was very effective when the press of bodies was so tight that movement was difficult to impossible. Arm thrusting or slashing was ineffective.

Being able to stab down at an opponent who might be cowering behind his shield and make contact was effective especially when trying to deliver a blow between shields, spear shafts, arms, other weapons....

To be able to make a short 6-9" stab at an opponents face was also effective.

The look in an opponent's eyes when he could do nothing to prevent the blow except maybe try to turn his face..

There were times when my helmet was pressed up against an opponent's.."Excuse me, but are you dead?" "Nope!" STAB! "Well, I am now!" (SCA combat can be so polite.)
Hibernicus

LEGIO IX HISPANA, USA

You cannot dig ditches in a toga!

[url:194jujcw]http://www.legio-ix-hispana.org[/url]
A nationwide club with chapters across N America
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#28
What really makes this technique very efficient is if the other guy is wearing body Armour like a curras. The only way to do very effective damage is down the collarbones or under the armpit. The Dacian is turned away, offering enough time for a swift grip change, stepping in and forcefully (hence the grip change) planting the gladius down his ribcage. A blow to the neck is hindered by the Dacians primary weapon held in the right hand, on the same side as the legionary sword.
Salvete et Valete



Nil volentibus arduum





Robert P. Wimmers
www.erfgoedenzo.nl/Diensten/Creatie Big Grin
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#29
Quote:I wish I had a photo of us using the technique in Roman kit when we used to fight as Romans in the SCA. Let me assure you that it was very effective when the press of bodies was so tight that movement was difficult to impossible. Arm thrusting or slashing was ineffective.
Being able to stab down at an opponent who might be cowering behind his shield and make contact was effective especially when trying to deliver a blow between shields, spear shafts, arms, other weapons....
To be able to make a short 6-9" stab at an opponents face was also effective.
The look in an opponent's eyes when he could do nothing to prevent the blow except maybe try to turn his face..

I stand corrected! Smile
Stabs to the face are always nice to perform, at the most you can do some serious damage..at the least your oppenent will flinch away or avert his face which also gives you some nice opportunities.

Quote:There were times when my helmet was pressed up against an opponent's.."Excuse me, but are you dead?" "Nope!" STAB! "Well, I am now!" (SCA combat can be so polite.)

Lovely...those rules of engagement!Big Grin
Mike van der Linden

You are not a busy man, you make of yourself a busy man.....
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