Helmet Roman or Carthaginian?

[L C Cinna]

And don't forget that half of the Roman republican army consists of allies from all over Italy! There were strong trade relations with greek towns and a strong greek influence. I agree with MeinPanzer, I don't think all Roman soldiers wore montefortino or other Italian types of helmets.

What makes people so sure that this is a tribunes helmet if it were Roman? Roman soldiers bought their own equipment accodring to wealth and fashion.

[Tarbicus]

What makes people so sure that this is a tribunes helmet if it were Roman? Roman soldiers bought their own equipment accodring to wealth and fashion.

Is that verifiable? I could say 'tradition' played a major part as well.

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

A clearer pic:

http://k47.pbase.com/g3/28/410728/2/584 ... um1812.jpg

The one at the right side seems a Montefortino.

[Dan Diffendale]

I was thinking of that ornate triple disc breastplate, with the head of Athena on it, which is identified as Carthaginian. They worshiped different gods I believe. Correct me if I am wrong. Mind you there could be other reasons for it being in carthaginian finds...mercenaries etc?

The triple-disc cuirass is typically associated with the Samnites and/or Lucanians. There are two reasonable explanations for finding one in North Africa:
a) It belonged to an Italic ally or mercenary who went with Hannibal to Africa.
b) It belonged to an Italic warrior who was slain and despoiled by one of Hannibal's men, who brought it back to Africa.

And don't forget that half of the Roman republican army consists of allies from all over Italy!

Who served both with and against Rome, sometimes both at varying times.

[L C Cinna]

And don't forget that half of the Roman republican army consists of allies from all over Italy!

Who served both with and against Rome, sometimes both at varying times.

yes, all I meant is that even if it's not Roman it isn't necessarily Carthaginian.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

but spanish???

M.VIB.M.

[Crispvs]

Stepping back for a moment to the Domitius Ahenobarbus relief, it has always seemed to me that the helmet on the right is an Italio-Corinthian of some sort. Apart from the thing around the brow, the helmet on the left looks to be the architypal Montifortino. Bearing in mind that the relief is not securely dated, it occurs to me that the thing around the brow might even be an L-section re-enforcing peak, as was fitted to a some extant late Montifortinos.

The identification of the Montifortino in the Mikkalus seems certain but I notice a helmet to the left of it which looks like our old friend the 'Frankhelm' as discussed almost to death a couple of years ago.

Crispvs

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

"a) It belonged to an Italic ally or mercenary who went with Hannibal to Africa.
b) It belonged to an Italic warrior who was slain and despoiled by one of Hannibal's men, who brought it back to Africa"

That is what I was trying to say

As it says in Connolly, which I just dug out today,

" A beautifully decorated triple disc cuirass from a tomb at Ksour-es-Sad, Tunisia, now in the Bardo museum, Tunis. It is undoubtedly of southern Italian manufacture. There is a very similar example at Naples."

This is the example I am refering to, and this more or less supports the idea that things are not always proven buy their location of discovery, I think.

PS Wish i could post the picture too, it is nice!

[MeinPanzer]

but spanish???

M.VIB.M.

I highly doubt it. Though my knowledge of Hellenistic Spanish helmets is not too great, I've never seen a helmet of the type in the original post in a Spanish context. This type of helmet seems to not have been very popular west of Italy, and enjoyed widespread popularity amongst the Hellenistic armies of the east.

Stepping back for a moment to the Domitius Ahenobarbus relief, it has always seemed to me that the helmet on the right is an Italio-Corinthian of some sort.

I'm not sure what the "Italo-Corinthian" looks like. Is this the form of helmet where the Corinthian facepiece was moved up to form an ornamental visor? If so, I think you may be right, but there's no real way of knowing for sure unless the helmet could be seen head-on.

Apart from the thing around the brow, the helmet on the left looks to be the architypal Montifortino. Bearing in mind that the relief is not securely dated, it occurs to me that the thing around the brow might even be an L-section re-enforcing peak, as was fitted to a some extant late Montifortinos.

But that crimped rim is a pretty huge detail which proves it to not be a Montefortino. The cheek pieces also don't look like the stereotypical "jagged" Montefortino type either, but I know that cheek pieces could vary. In my opinion, this is simply one of a style of simple Hellenistic helms which became popular in the second and first centuries BC. They can be found all over the eastern Mediterranean and though they varied in ornamentation, they almost always had a relatively simple dome and a fairly small projecting rim which was crimped or wavy. For those of you who have Nick Sekunda's Osprey on the Republican Roman Army, look at page 14 to see a relief showing soldiers carrying scuta with unique-looking bosses and helmets which look very similar to the one worn by the left Ahenobarbus figure, albeit with simple volute decorations. This type of helmet is also worn by the other two soldiers on the Ahenobarbus relief:



Note the simple dome shape, small flared rims (which have, unfortunately, been eroded quite a bit on the right figure), simple volute decoration above the rim, and simple cheek pieces.

It's always irritated me that scholars like Sekunda automatically say that the Ahenobarbus figures wear Montefortinos, because a little bit of close observation clearly proves otherwise!

The identification of the Montifortino in the Mikkalus seems certain but I notice a helmet to the left of it which looks like our old friend the 'Frankhelm' as discussed almost to death a couple of years ago.

The only detail that makes me hesitant to declare it a Montefortino is the point where the rim of the helmet meets at the front- though it's subtle, it looks decidedly non-Montefortino.

[Matthew Amt]

Just to muddy things further, remember that museums get their artifacts from all over the world. So just because a helmet (or breastplate!) is in a museum in Africa or Spain does not mean it was found there, much less produced and used there. DID we find out where that first-mentioned helmet was actually found?

Valete,

Matthew

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Still waiting for that little gem! :wink:

[Dan Diffendale]

I'm not sure what the "Italo-Corinthian" looks like.

Try my page here, for the type of helmet known variously as "Italo-Corinthian," "Apulo-Corinthian," "Etrusco-Corinthian," "Pseudo-Corinthian," "Corinthian parade helmet," or "Corinthian helmet... in a grievously distorted form."

Stepping back for a moment to the Domitius Ahenobarbus relief, it has always seemed to me that the helmet on the right is an Italio-Corinthian of some sort.

I don't think I've ever seen an Apulo-Corinthian type helmet with that volute on the side, or a crest that springs directly from the bowl.

[Tarbicus]

I don't think I've ever seen an Apulo-Corinthian type helmet with that volute on the side

You have now :wink: :wink:

[MeinPanzer]

I'm not sure what the "Italo-Corinthian" looks like.

Try my page here, for the type of helmet known variously as "Italo-Corinthian," "Apulo-Corinthian," "Etrusco-Corinthian," "Pseudo-Corinthian," "Corinthian parade helmet," or "Corinthian helmet... in a grievously distorted form."

You can add "Proto-Corinthian" to that list, which is Dintsis' (rather illogical, considering the original Corinthian is the "protos" Corinthian) name for that type.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

http://www.cimec.ro/p/Clasate/ARH_6916500_29-41.jpg

THANX TO LUP_ALB!!! see dacian post!!

A possible Roman TRIBUNE HELMET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WOW!!!!!

M.VIB.M.