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Tarbicus said.....
"This is where we differ entirely on how the army looked in the field. I have no reason to believe that the men (and I include the lowly gregarius) did not intend to look splendidly bright in battle."
Why would a young tribune not look good in that helmet with a good crest?
Just not to outshine his superiors? Seems many older Romans were touchy about being upstaged.....
Tarbicus said......
"Why wear feathers or plumes?"
To make one self look taller?
Rubens? said.......
"For those saying that this looks similar to Tribune helmets, could you please post some examples to illustrate what you mean?"
That is why I said perhaps this is the "missing link"......? No one seems to know what a tribune helmet looks like from what I have seen..... :lol:
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Quote:For those saying that this looks similar to Tribune helmets, could you please post some examples to illustrate what you mean?
I could imagine the general style being worn by a tribune or high class officer as it's hellenistic.
[url:wjrw1lka]http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?p=105799#105799[/url]
It might go well with a musculata and a parazonium, as would this helmet.
[url:wjrw1lka]http://web.tiscali.it/iulianevivas/basilica_Emilia.jpg[/url]
[url:wjrw1lka]http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?p=107478#107478[/url]
Quote:The type of helmet in the OP is neither Thracian nor Attic, but is a unique and purely Hellenistic species.
What is it called as a type so we can call it something?
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There is a nice helmet in the Berlin museum which would make a nice Tribune helmet too, unfortunately, I do not have a scanner! You can see it in Ospreys Cannae book!
I agree with you Ruben, that it is definately Hellenistic..... as I mentioned in my earlier post!
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I guess the Berlin helmet you mean is one of the 3 i mentioned before? would be nice to see a scan.
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hello Cinna!
Quite possibly! The caption in osprey says (Berlin Antikenmuseum, Inv.10481) It is missing its cheek guards, but you can see rivets for them, and the neck guard is a little eaten away, but otherwise is well preserved, and quite plain, other than thefront peak which is raised from the bowl, and sweeps back into that scroll design! Also a couple of ridges raised in the front peak.
there is a crest holder on top, and possibly a tie down point at front, maybe at back too, but no rear shot, so is hard to be certain!
Hope that makes any sense....!
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mhm sorry I still can't scan. the info on the helmet 10481 are:
2nd century BCE from Pergamon
Bronze.-hight 18,6cm;L.26,5cm;B.20,5
It is made out of one piece, has small parts cut out for the ears and it has a plumeholder on top, the plume was further fixed by two hooks (with small heart-shaped attachments???)
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Hmmm...
[url:2mu30cvk]http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?p=115854#115854[/url]
Part I of a roman anatolian stone work of 1st Cent BC. (correct link now)
[url:2mu30cvk]http://www.imagebarn.net/image/70-116894827955[/url]
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That's the Mikkalus relief, isn't it?
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Don't know to be honest. :?
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Quote:MeinPanzer:24zaqp0a Wrote:For those saying that this looks similar to Tribune helmets, could you please post some examples to illustrate what you mean?
I could imagine the general style being worn by a tribune or high class officer as it's hellenistic.
[url:24zaqp0a]http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?p=105799#105799[/url]
It might go well with a musculata and a parazonium, as would this helmet.
[url:24zaqp0a]http://web.tiscali.it/iulianevivas/basilica_Emilia.jpg[/url]
[url:24zaqp0a]http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?p=107478#107478[/url]
Quote:The type of helmet in the OP is neither Thracian nor Attic, but is a unique and purely Hellenistic species.
What is it called as a type so we can call it something?
I don't know exactly... I can't remember what Dintsis calls it (I recall him calling it some sort of Attic hybrid or something) but it is in a class of its own. Even with Dintsis' fairly comprehensive classification, he omits many representational sources and also fails to include many different specimens in his classifications. Perhaps someone should go through again in the future and "re-classify" many different helmets.
Quote:Hmmm...
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... 854#115854
Part I of a roman anatolian stone work of 1st Cent BC. (correct link now)
http://www.imagebarn.net/image/70-116894827955
Oh, yeah, I've seen this relief before, but I didn't really know where to place it, to be honest. Without more detail, the helmets can't really be classified all that well, though they could easily be this type. Still, do you suppose that all the figures wearing lorica musculata and those helmets represented are tribunes?
Ruben
He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
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Quote:That's the Mikkalus relief, isn't it?
just looked it up in the imagebase and yes it is lol
Mikkalus
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Quote:Oh, yeah, I've seen this relief before, but I didn't really know where to place it, to be honest. Without more detail, the helmets can't really be classified all that well, though they could easily be this type. Still, do you suppose that all the figures wearing lorica musculata and those helmets represented are tribunes?
In Osprey's Armies of the Carthaginian Wars, Terence Wise and Richard Hook definitely illustrate uncannily similar panoplies for the Roman legate and tribune (Plate B).
At left is the tribune, to the right the legate.
![[Image: Rom_Consul2.jpg]](http://www.slitherine.com/Legion/Images/Rom_Consul2.jpg)
The tribune is based on a figure from the good old Ahenobarbus relief, the legate on a 3rdC BC statue found in Rhodes.
See also one of the RAT pics posted by L C Cinna above (ta).
[url:lv8lfw74]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/images/stories/imagebase/FirstnameST/lg_TFlaviusMikkalusd3.jpg[/url]
I've also taken a look at the helmet in Osprey's Cannae,and it's clear the helmets all share certain hellenistic traits, to the point that Healy says that helmet could be a Roman general's, or a Carthaginian helmet. :? Even when this lot weren't using each other's equipment I don't know how they managed to tell each other apart!
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Quote:MeinPanzer:1rnkmfor Wrote:Oh, yeah, I've seen this relief before, but I didn't really know where to place it, to be honest. Without more detail, the helmets can't really be classified all that well, though they could easily be this type. Still, do you suppose that all the figures wearing lorica musculata and those helmets represented are tribunes?
In Osprey's Armies of the Carthaginian Wars, Terence Wise and Richard Hook definitely illustrate uncannily similar panoplies for the Roman legate and tribune (Plate B).
At left is the tribune, to the right the legate.
The tribune is based on a figure from the good old Ahenobarbus relief, the legate on a 3rdC BC statue found in Rhodes.
The Rhodes statue is an entirely non-Roman source, not to mention one that could not easily be assigned to any specific kind of soldier or officer even if it was.
Quote:See also one of the RAT pics posted by L C Cinna above (ta).
[url:1rnkmfor]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/images/stories/imagebase/FirstnameST/lg_TFlaviusMikkalusd3.jpg[/url]
I strongly suspect that this relief is illustrating the beginnings of the classicization that would become more prevalent later on in the art of the empire. By the 1st C. BC, there are also other representations which seem to show the beginnings of classiciziation, with Argive shields carried by soldiers and so on.
Quote:I've also taken a look at the helmet in Osprey's Cannae,and it's clear the helmets all share certain hellenistic traits, to the point that Healy says that helmet could be a Roman general's, or a Carthaginian helmet. :? Even when this lot weren't using each other's equipment I don't know how they managed to tell each other apart!
I'm fairly certain that any assignment of helmets like this to Roman sources is entirely speculative. I think that more Republican Roman soldiers wore Hellenistic helms than people seem to think, and that though the Montefortino was common, it was not omnipresent within the Roman army (and the Ahenobarbus relief is good evidence indicating this, along with a few others). But despite this, I've never seen very convincing arguments to assign finds of actual helmets of various types to Roman soldiers.
Ruben
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actually the helmet one of the tribunes is holding on the relief does look like the photos posted!
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Also, many romans were stripped of their equipment by Hannibal for his men. So, many finds of carthaginian equipment could actually have been Roman originally!? I was thinking of that ornate triple disc breastplate, with the head of Athena on it, which is identified as Carthaginian. They worshiped different gods I believe. Correct me if I am wrong. Mind you there could be other reasons for it being in carthaginian finds...mercenaries etc?
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