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Helmet Roman or Carthaginian?
#16
Well... As I can see from the images posted here, the helmet has thracian,attic,phrigian and greek influences but also shows the simplicity and functionality of a roman design. It could be an early roman helmet of a soldier wanting to show that his family has a long military tradition. The romans claim their origin from the people that escaped Troy under the leadership of Aeneas and troy was a thracian/attic/phrigian town so ... who knows ... just an ideea...
Romulus Stoica

Better be a hawk for a day than crow for an year!
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#17
i must say that it is a very nice type of helmet, very beautiful.
gr,
Jeroen Pelgrom
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I would rather have fire storms of atmospheres than this cruel descent from a thousand years of dreams.
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#18
Quote:You're thinking it's a fireman's helmet aren't you??? Vigiles??? :wink: :wink: :wink:

helmets like these can also be seen on the 'Ahenobarbus' relief..
http://www.ribekatedralskole.dk/classic ... ldater.jpg
Ooh, ooh, ooh. Big Grin Even more now, but not a fireman's helmet yet. I'd never seen the potential connection between a thracian and an italic!
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#19
my to cents worth would be that it is definetely Carthaginian.

why? well the Carthaginians were sea-farers, and would have come across much more types of military equipment through their trade travels.

The helmet has no characteristics of any Republican Roman helmet i have seen so far from either the mainland of Italy or even the finds in Gaul, and hispania ulterior, namely almost all based or looking like Montefortino and Coolus types..

This helmet is so very different that it cannot be something else than Carthaginian...

A Tribune helmet of the era? difficult to say, since no other examples from Italy exist.... and most Italic-attic / attic-greco helmets look totally different.

Also I think that a Ronman Tribune helmet would have been more decorated with images of gods, animals, etcetera...


M.VIB.M.
Bushido wa watashi no shuukyou de gozaru.

Katte Kabuto no O wo shimeyo!

H.J.Vrielink.
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#20
Still, looks similar to many sculptural depiction of ancient roman officers. In a weathered, worn by 2 millenia of exposure to the elements, sort of way....... :lol:

Could be that of a younger tribune/officer, just starting on his military career?
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#21
Quote:The helmet has no characteristics of any Republican Roman helmet i have seen so far

So how do you explain this depiction of Republican soldiers wearing this helmet type?

http://www.ribekatedralskole.dk/classic ... ldater.jpg
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#22
thats a DIFFERENT type alltogether!!

M.VIB.M.
Bushido wa watashi no shuukyou de gozaru.

Katte Kabuto no O wo shimeyo!

H.J.Vrielink.
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#23
But not THAT different! Similar enough to be related, and why would all tribune helmets be identical. And overly decorated! Some might go for the plain look just so they did not look like total prats in front of everyone, untill they actually had some experience under their belts, and had proven them selves.......? Just a thought......... Big Grin
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#24
I personally think the helmet first posted is not a tribune's, because I do believe it would be decorated in keeping with the prestige and military prowess for their social class at the time. But that's only my opinion.

But, as Crispvs has mentioned elsewhere, it can be a bit too much at times to be strictly rigid with categorisation. The Ahenobarbus relief Ade posted definitely shares features with the first helmet, but also has more attic elements, like what seem to be eyes and a nasal. There's no reason that a soldier (especially officer) decided on a trendy feature like the projecting peak as seen on "...those lovely thracian helmets. Helps keep the blasted sun out of one's eyes. But it must have the eyeholes and nasal, or Pater would be most upset." surely?
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#25
Yes I follow that trend of thought! which is why I think it is as likely candidate as not for a tribune helmet, Jim! But that too, is OMHO! :lol:
I would think that there were also young Romans who had more savy than to jump into a posting with all the finery associated with a successful general! True, there were many who didn't, but not all were idiots! Some actually went on to earn the trappings of success! Big Grin
It seemss to have quite a few features associated with the various styles mentiond elsewhere, but the boetian feature gives it a more hellenistic look than not, to my eyes! Also the silvered one looks very attic in style, although still showing a hybrid of other style features! :roll:
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#26
Well, I personally think that the helmets depicted in the relief are more montefortino shaped than the helmet photo's posted... they also miss the large rim on top of the helmet, and the boeotian indentations....

M.VIB.M.
Bushido wa watashi no shuukyou de gozaru.

Katte Kabuto no O wo shimeyo!

H.J.Vrielink.
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#27
I would agree about the one on the left! Def Montefortino!
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#28
Quote:I would think that there were also young Romans who had more savy than to jump into a posting with all the finery associated with a successful general!
This is where we differ entirely on how the army looked in the field. I have no reason to believe that the men (and I include the lowly gregarius) did not intend to look splendidly bright in battle. There is just too much to indicate, in literature, that they were proud of their appearance, both in military and civilian life. Why wear feathers or plumes? Why the descriptions of bright and shining armour, why wear medals and decorations into battle? There is even a centurion who supposedly wore a brazier with hot coals on top of his helmet to give the right impression to the enemy (scare the crap out of them!).

Sorry, but I just don't really buy this more modern image of the man in battle. :wink: Judging a man by his appearance was endemic to the Roman psyche, and the army had just as much of that in its ranks as in civilian life, as far as I can tell.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#29
It would be, however not entirely, compareable to the Samurai care and prowess in looking good on the battlefield....

even though the Samurai armies consisted of large volumes of troops, with a certain discipline, the eagerness to go in battle as an individual, or small group, is not compareable to the Roman military...

I also think that almost every single legionary wanted to look good and was proud of their equipment... I do not know wether there were punishments forn not taking care of your equipment in the Roman military system..

M.VIB.M.
Bushido wa watashi no shuukyou de gozaru.

Katte Kabuto no O wo shimeyo!

H.J.Vrielink.
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#30
Quote:I would agree about the one on the left! Def Montefortino!

Montefortino helmets never had projecting lower rims like the one on the left, and they definitely never had crimped lower rims.

Quote:So how do you explain this depiction of Republican soldiers wearing this helmet type?

http://www.ribekatedralskole.dk/classic ... ldater.jpg

These are not even close to the helmet in the original post. The type of helmet in the OP is neither Thracian nor Attic, but is a unique and purely Hellenistic species. Those of you concerned with Hellenistic helmets should consult "Hellenistische Helme" by P. Dintsis, who is the Robinson of Hellenistic helmets.

Features always present in this species include:

-Flat projecting metal crest.
-Volutes on either side which meet in the front in an Attic-style peaked. band sitting above the visor (note how the helmet of the right-hand Ahenobarbus figure has volutes which form on either side of the front visor of the helmet itself, and not the band sitting above the visor).
-A visor which doesn't project too far but which sometimes has crimping near the ears and which changes into a shallowly curved neckguard.

Notable decoration which is found on some examples include:

-Horizontal "ribs" running around the top of the band and towards the rear of the helmet dividing the bowl from the neckguard.
-Oftentimes some sort of decoration (Gorgon, Athena, etc.) embossed above the peak of the frontal band, just below the forwardmost point of the crest.

Note that the Ahenobarbus soldier's helmet lacks the crucial flat metal crest as well as the "Attic" peaked band above the visor.

For those saying that this looks similar to Tribune helmets, could you please post some examples to illustrate what you mean?
Ruben

He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
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