Legionary Insignia

[Robert Vermaat]

IMHO? Translation please. Thank you Jim.

IMHO = Im My Humble Opinion. Internet language.

[Tarbicus]

And herre's one that I think I'll be using from now on:

IMHOAIPW

In my humble opinion and I'm probably wrong.

[marcii ulpi messala]

Pardon, thank you very much to the two

[Matthew Amt]

There's no mystery Matt. There are no boars on 1st/2nd C shield emblems found to date even in sculpture, which was the point of the original question. Transplanting wishful thinking on the facts means that painting your shield with it is ... wishful thinking, and probably because it looks good.

Oh, I agree, definitely! It's just another case of the Romans doing particular things in particular ways, and we simply don't know why. I certainly advise steering clear of wishful thinking! When Legio XX first got started, we actually had a large boar painted on our shields, inspired partly by an illustration in Warry's book. But then we decided that little evidence was better than none at all, and changed to wings and lighting bolts. It was simply the right thing to do.

The example on a Late shield is pretty meaningless, as we should therefore say that tunics were long-sleeved and Intercissas were worn.

Agreed again, as the original question was about 1st century generally. (Which is why I ignored Dura Europas, Mike!)

That's not to say an educated guess is wrong, but it does negate the validity of, for instance, the idea that maybe the Roman Army had a strict tradition of certain motifs being used on shields, perhaps for good fortune in the name of certain traditions, in particular Jupiter? I hope you see what I mean. Because it was on a standard doesn't mean it was on a scutum.

Absolutely. Hey, I'm singing the same song, eh? I'm just trying to get people to be happy with shrugging their shoulders and saying "We have no idea WHY!" Add a little hysterical giggle or manic cackling, for effect.

Vale,

Matthew

[M. Demetrius]

Slightly altering the direction of the conversation, we are wondering if legions carried other emblems besides the Aquila on poles. As stated above, Caesar's Legion X had an emblem of a bull, like some of his other legions. Is there evidence that they may have had a bull standard in addition to an eagle, or instead of?

[Tarbicus]

Slightly altering the direction of the conversation, we are wondering if legions carried other emblems besides the Aquila on poles. As stated above, Caesar's Legion X had an emblem of a bull, like some of his other legions. Is there evidence that they may have had a bull standard in addition to an eagle, or instead of?

Depends if this is Roman or enemy, or both, equipments.
[url:fhhj90t9]http://www.archart.it/archart/europa/France/Orange%20-%20roman%20arch/image18.html[/url]

[M. Demetrius]

Wow! That's anybody's guess.

What an assortment of gear all piled around there...I won't cite any movie references, because they're of course unreliable (taken by themselves), but I'm sure there were some other-than-eagle-animals in some of those, being carried by the Legions. That, naturally means nothing at all.

Omigosh! Those gladius scabbards only have one set of rings!

Hmmm. Still curious.

[Tarbicus]

I'm pretty sure the bull and the boar were regular standards, particularly during the Republican period. Also IIRC, the Aquila was made of silver, and only later (Augustan or post-Augustan) it became gold.

[Caius Fabius]

Peroni wrote....
"The capricorn is also the zodiac signum of LEG XIIII GMV, also raised by Augustus"

I was under the impression the XIIIIth was raised by Caesar? Wiped out, then reformed?

Just read a good book on the XIIII by a Stephen Dando-Collins, so I hope it is somewhat accurate?

Dando-Collins books, accuracy... I place them in my library on a shelf with other historical fiction. I know he butchered the Legio X book, ... but wait, there have been previous discussions, somewhere on RAT!

[Peroni]

I'm pretty sure the bull and the boar were regular standards

Thanks for reminding me Jim,

There is a tombstone of a third century Batavian of Coh I Batavorum from Brocolitia (Carrawburgh) carrying a bull signum and a really bizarre shaped shield. (Clayton Museum - Chesters)

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b242/ ... all036.jpg

[Tarbicus]

I'm pretty sure the bull and the boar were regular standards

Thanks for reminding me Jim,

There is a tombstone of a third century Batavian of Coh I Batavorum from Brocolitia (Carrawburgh) carrying a bull signum and a really bizarre shaped shield. (Clayton Museum - Chesters)

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b242/ ... all036.jpg

Bizarre standard as well - what's going on with its base? Looks like it's designed to be free-standing.

[Peroni]

Or an exagerated small trident.

Have a look at the Embleton and Simkins reconstructions. They give it a bit more of a realistic approach.

[drsrob]

Peroni wrote....
"The capricorn is also the zodiac signum of LEG XIIII GMV, also raised by Augustus"

I was under the impression the XIIIIth was raised by Caesar? Wiped out, then reformed?

Just read a good book on the XIIII by a Stephen Dando-Collins, so I hope it is somewhat accurate?

Dando-Collins books, accuracy... I place them in my library on a shelf with other historical fiction. I know he butchered the Legio X book, ... but wait, there have been previous discussions, somewhere on RAT!

The Capricorn is indeed the sign of the legio XIIII GEM. The title gemina means something like 'double'. This is generally supposed to signify that the legion was a merger of two Civil War legions, one or both of them a fourteenth. This would have been done by Augustus after Actium, making him the second founder.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Yes, Fabius, his books do have a few errors, but then so do many other modern authors! According to him, every legion he writes about wears "blood red tunics" :lol: :lol:
So Rob, you would agree then, that Caesar was the original founder, or do you have someone else in mind for that honor?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

"There is a tombstone of a third century Batavian of Coh I Batavorum from Brocolitia (Carrawburgh) carrying a bull signum and a really bizarre shaped shield."

Hmmmmm. perhaps supposed to resemble the imperial scutum, but too small for asthetic reasons? Seems many sculptured scuta are shown quite small, maybe not quite THAT small, but then it is a tombstone.....?

or