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Late Romans mostly Celt?
#16
Oops... :oops: new Delhi, of course. Those Celts get better and better! Big Grin
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#17
Quote:Maybe Brennos did not like to leave much of a signature :roll:

He sacked other towns .... did he do a proper job so that we can tell he was there ?

Well Pausanias gives a macabre description of Brennos "party" at Kallion.
(Damned tourists!). It never recovered. It was leveled so thoroughly that
the only thing that was excavated were a few masonry stones and few pottery fragments. The destruction has been dated to 3rd century B.C.
The only destruction at Delphi has been dated A.D. not B.C.
(Never trust a tourist guide) :twisted:

Kind regards
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#18
Quote:I give up I say...Celts are the real (late)Romans.

Agree with you, there, bro'! 8)

In as much as Gaul, Spain and Britain had been thoroughly Romanized
by the 5th c. then, absolutely, the native Celtic populations had become
the real late-Romans. Modern historians call 5th c. natives of Gaul
'Gallo-Romans', and the invading Anglo-Saxons called the native
population of 5th c. Britain (often claimed to be exclusively 'Celtic' by
many - which ignores all their recent Roman cultural assimilations)
'Wealas', which has the connotation of 'Romanized people'. :wink:

Ambrosius / Mike
"Feel the fire in your bones."
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#19
Quote:I agree, the late Romans were akin to Americans in this regard. (Perhaps that is one of the reasons why we are so fascinated by them) The 'Celts' did have a culture throughout most of Europe and controlled such. They should have their due too. Looking at Caesars diaries in reality the Celts gave him allot of problems, whereby the
Germans were disposed of with relative ease.

Absolutely right. Two very important points, here. I always compare
the late-Roman Empire to the U.S. Each Province/Diocese in the late-
Empire was like a State in the Union. Different geographies and
ethnicities, but sharing a common economy and legal system. And with
a military that defended very wide-ranging borders and trade-contacts.
As far as ethnicities go, parts of the U.S. are as Cosmopolitan as the
late-Empire (only 7% or less of the population of New York City are WASP, for example).

On the second point, I think it's been said that the reason we never
had a 'Celtic' Empire is that - by its very nature - Celtic culture was
far more fragmented than Roman culture. And despite the fact that,
in the early Republic, Celtic culture posed serious threats to Rome,
it was the ability of the Roman world to unite and centralise that tipped
the balance in Rome's favour. Celtic society was never going to amount
to more than a collection of tribes, and that's why Roman culture came
to dominate in Europe. Also, as you point-out in Caesar's commentary,
in the centuries B.C. it was Celtic culture that was in the ascendancy
in Europe (outside the Roman sphere) and Germanic tribes were
relatively weaker, being more easily handled by Rome. However, once
we get into the late-Empire, with most of the former Celtic world having
been successfully Romanised, we see Germanic society coming into
the ascendancy, and being the one which causes Rome many of the problems in the West, rather than any residual Celticism (except in
Britain, where Pictsish pirates are still as much a threat to the already Romanised areas as Saxon pirates).

Quote:The Celts were not 'barbarians' in the negative sense and Caesar it seems new this. His negotiations show much sophistication on both
sides, not just unilateral.

Yes, I've always been interested in this point. I think Augustus wanted
to include Gallic senators in the government, to help integrate Gaul into
Roman culture. But it wasn't until Claudius's reign that this seriously
took-off (he was a really wise guy). 8) This is what started the process
of making everyone within the Empire feel more enfranchised; which
ultimately resulted in (Caracalla?) extending citizenship across
the whole Empire. (Of course, that meant everyone had to start paying
taxes for the first time - they may not all have jumped for joy.) :?

Quote:My Celt Friend says what he meant was that there were so many Celts that they were easily the majority in the late Roman army but not the only group of course.


In Western Europe that may be true. The army in 4th/5th c. Britain,
Gaul and Spain were undoubtedly largely drawn from the native
population by this time. Hell, you see that in the names of units in the Notitia Dignitatum and elsewhere, where the former IInd leg Augusta
based at Caerleon in Britain ends up getting split into five smaller
Constantinian legions (like all the others) of two cohorts each and
spread out to cover a much larger area. Thus you get five new units
with very similar names split between Britain and Gaul. One of these
gets based at the Saxon Shore Fort of Richborough, another joins the
field-army in Britain, while you get units of the Gallic field army
appearing with names like 'Secundani Britones', showing that, not only
were native Britons forming units in the late-army, but they were being
exported around the Empire! :lol:

Quote:Yes , I know that many people from the Balkans were in the army and became emporors even and from everywhere else.

Yes, that's the beauty of the late-Empire. More enfranchisement.
Both Constantine and Justinian were born in the Balkans. Though
even as early as Hadrian (Spaniard) and Septimius Severus (North
African) the Empre was no longer the preserve of ethnic Italians. :wink:

Ambrosius / Mike
"Feel the fire in your bones."
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#20
Hadrian was born in Hispania, but descended from italian colonists (as Trajan). Usually Septimus is considered the first non roman descendent (but they are stillk some discussion), but if you want someone with true "barbarian" ascendency, you have Maximus the thracian.
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#21
In the U.S. we have a strong Irish American population(or part),to the tune of over 40 million. Many Irish-Americans consider themselves Celts and descendants of such. Feelings are very strong here and many feel the Romans did a grave injustice to Europe in attempting to eradicate their civilization.
I would not even attempt to tell them that the Romans really just absorbed them and Late Romans were mainly Celt and German. They would never buy that. Celt to them is Celt...an ethnic group and a spiritual identity. It is really strange but just the way it is here.
Ralph Varsity
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