01-15-2007, 11:23 PM
Hi Harry,
Well, we've been having this discussion recently on another list, and it
seems that the ultimate origin of the term 'Wealas/Welch/Welsh' is in
the name of the Celtic tribe, the Volcae Technosausages (okay, I
deliberately mis-spelt that last part for comic effect) :lol:
Anyway, it seems that the Germanic tribes neighbouring the Volcae
then adopted their name as the generic description for any Celtic tribe
(especially a Romanised one - once Gaul had become part of the
Empire). Hence we get the three possible connotations of the term
'Welsh' as applied to 5th/6th c. Britons. As you point-out, this refers to
Romanised Celtic communities/enclaves neighbouring the incoming
Anglo-Saxons. As you know, the placename 'Walton' is an Old English
one meaning 'Welsh settlement'. Interestingly, there is a Walton Castle
which is the Saxon Shore Fort near to Felixtowe in Suffolk. This then
gives us a nice clue as to this fort not only still being occupied in the
late 5th c. (when the Angles first arrived) but probably still garrisoned
by British troops. 8)
There are many other examples of 'Walton' placenames across England.
One is South of Glastonbury, in Somerset, which is also neighbouring
to the anciently named 'Brutteshayshe' - meaning 'British Ash', for a
British enclave sited near an Ash tree. And both these sites are next to
the modern town of Street, which (as in so many other locations across
England) is the Old English name for a still functioning Roman road. :wink:
Thus we have OE names indicationg a Romanised British/Welsh enclave
living to the West of the main West Saxon advance, probably named
at some time after the West Saxon push west in the mid 6th c.
Other examples of Saxon Shore Forts still likely occupied in the 5th c.
would include Pevensey Castle (Anderida) whose garrison is attested in the ASC as being besieged, captured and slaughtered c. 490 by South
Saxons under Aelle. Also mentioned in the ASC is Carisbrooke, as one
of the battle sites in the West Saxon campaign of the early 6th c., which
they fought against the native British population. Carisbrooke is very
interesting, as the later Norman Castle is built over the visible remains
of a late Roman fort. We know it's late Roman, as its masonry is laid
herring-bone fashion and there are still two small external bastions
evident. The overall ground-plan is also square. This indicates a date
of construction of the mid 3rd century, since the square plan and small
external bastions place it as intermediate between the earliest Saxon
Shore Forts (c. 200 AD) and the latest (c. 300 AD). There is no chance,
whatsoever that a structure like this is late-Saxon.
As to why Carisbrooke is not listed in the Notitia Dignitatum is anyone's
guess. But as Carisbrooke is just to the West of Portchester (the most
Westerly listed Shore Fort in the N.D.) and as we have always known
that the pages detailing the forts and units in Wales and on the West
coast have always been missing from the N.D., then it is reasonable to
surmise that Carisbrooke is simply one of those many forts (like Cardiff
Castle - another 'Saxon Shore Fort' defending this harbour from Irish
pirates) which were originally listed on pages of the N.D. that have
simply not survived.
Portchester, itself, (guarding Portsmouth harbour) is the likely site
captured by the eponymous Saxon king 'Port', c. 500. And it's also
likely the site of the battle of 'Llongborth' (Warship Port) in the British
poem of the same name, where the British prince, Geraint (Gerontius)
is described as leading his armoured cavalry to try to recapture the
said site from the Saxon invaders. 8)
Ambrosius / Mike
Quote:Quote:Didn't the Anglo-Saxons
call the native Britons 'wealas' (the origin of modern 'Welsh') meaning:
1.)Foreigners? 2.)Slaves? 3.)Romanised people?
Germanic speakers appeared to have referred to their neighbours by language so, in north germany, we have Das Wendland, land of the Wends (slavic speakers) and in Switzerland we have Das Welschland, ie what is now french speaking switzerland. There are many of these names. The canton of Valais is derived from wahlisk as is the Walchersee etc. It's not so much 'foreigner' but a description of the type of foreign language that they spoke. Also, it only seems to be used where it is a neighbouring area. The irish weren't called welsh, but Hibernians, or Scots after their tribal name for example.
Well, we've been having this discussion recently on another list, and it
seems that the ultimate origin of the term 'Wealas/Welch/Welsh' is in
the name of the Celtic tribe, the Volcae Technosausages (okay, I
deliberately mis-spelt that last part for comic effect) :lol:
Anyway, it seems that the Germanic tribes neighbouring the Volcae
then adopted their name as the generic description for any Celtic tribe
(especially a Romanised one - once Gaul had become part of the
Empire). Hence we get the three possible connotations of the term
'Welsh' as applied to 5th/6th c. Britons. As you point-out, this refers to
Romanised Celtic communities/enclaves neighbouring the incoming
Anglo-Saxons. As you know, the placename 'Walton' is an Old English
one meaning 'Welsh settlement'. Interestingly, there is a Walton Castle
which is the Saxon Shore Fort near to Felixtowe in Suffolk. This then
gives us a nice clue as to this fort not only still being occupied in the
late 5th c. (when the Angles first arrived) but probably still garrisoned
by British troops. 8)
There are many other examples of 'Walton' placenames across England.
One is South of Glastonbury, in Somerset, which is also neighbouring
to the anciently named 'Brutteshayshe' - meaning 'British Ash', for a
British enclave sited near an Ash tree. And both these sites are next to
the modern town of Street, which (as in so many other locations across
England) is the Old English name for a still functioning Roman road. :wink:
Thus we have OE names indicationg a Romanised British/Welsh enclave
living to the West of the main West Saxon advance, probably named
at some time after the West Saxon push west in the mid 6th c.
Other examples of Saxon Shore Forts still likely occupied in the 5th c.
would include Pevensey Castle (Anderida) whose garrison is attested in the ASC as being besieged, captured and slaughtered c. 490 by South
Saxons under Aelle. Also mentioned in the ASC is Carisbrooke, as one
of the battle sites in the West Saxon campaign of the early 6th c., which
they fought against the native British population. Carisbrooke is very
interesting, as the later Norman Castle is built over the visible remains
of a late Roman fort. We know it's late Roman, as its masonry is laid
herring-bone fashion and there are still two small external bastions
evident. The overall ground-plan is also square. This indicates a date
of construction of the mid 3rd century, since the square plan and small
external bastions place it as intermediate between the earliest Saxon
Shore Forts (c. 200 AD) and the latest (c. 300 AD). There is no chance,
whatsoever that a structure like this is late-Saxon.
As to why Carisbrooke is not listed in the Notitia Dignitatum is anyone's
guess. But as Carisbrooke is just to the West of Portchester (the most
Westerly listed Shore Fort in the N.D.) and as we have always known
that the pages detailing the forts and units in Wales and on the West
coast have always been missing from the N.D., then it is reasonable to
surmise that Carisbrooke is simply one of those many forts (like Cardiff
Castle - another 'Saxon Shore Fort' defending this harbour from Irish
pirates) which were originally listed on pages of the N.D. that have
simply not survived.
Portchester, itself, (guarding Portsmouth harbour) is the likely site
captured by the eponymous Saxon king 'Port', c. 500. And it's also
likely the site of the battle of 'Llongborth' (Warship Port) in the British
poem of the same name, where the British prince, Geraint (Gerontius)
is described as leading his armoured cavalry to try to recapture the
said site from the Saxon invaders. 8)
Ambrosius / Mike
"Feel the fire in your bones."
