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mcbishop · 10-27-2002, 09:23 PM

Surely there IS only *Up Pompeii*?! Frankie Howerd taufght Russel Crowe everything he knows.Titter ye not... 
 
Mike Bishop 
 
Whose mother used to work for somebody who knew Francis Alick Howerd. Spooky or what?!

Caius Fabius · 10-28-2002, 12:18 AM

So, how many "Up Pompeii" episodes were there? I have the original film and a couple of videotapes with 3 or 4 episodes each. Again, this is a film that a very good knowledge of colloquial British English helps one catch much of the humour. 
 
Denarius winner? Still time for people to contribute! I was planning on closing the contest about the end of November, so the winner will get the denarius about Saturnalia or sooner, depending on where he or she resides.

10-29-2002, 09:57 PM

Quote: 
think of movies like Ben Hur and Spartacus and other historical movies made at that time as being too melodramatic. Maybe if they took away the sappy music, the acting would seem less over-the-top. | 
 
 
Man, melodrama IS antiquity! That's what I love about these old movies...they lacked the sense of 'realism' that our modern movies try to capture. In my mind, those overly dramatic movies capture the spirit of what it must have been like to be a stage actor back in Rome's glory days--broad, exagerated motions, so that everyone could see what you did, and loud voices bellowing out lines so that the back rows could hear....here's a snippit from Seneca: 
 
Lucius Annaeus Seneca, "Thyestes". 
Translated by E.F. Watling (Penguin, 1980) 
[Oh Father of all earth and all that lives, whose rising banishes the lesser lights that make the dark night beautiful: Why hast thou turned aside from thy appointed path? Why has thou blotted out the day and fled from heavens center? Why, O Phoebus, hast thou turned thy face from us? Vesper, the herald of the close of day, is not yet here to usher in the stars; thy wheel has not yet passed the western gate. Where with their day's work done, thy steeds should be unyoked. We have not heard the third note of the trumpet telling us that day is over. Ploughmen will stand amazed - suddenly supper-time, and oxen not yet ready to rest.] 
 
When compared to our modern concept of 'thinking', these ancient letters/plays/misc. writings/etc were definately over the top in melodrama....that's why spartacus and Rise and fall of the roman empire are great!! 
 
Britannicus

Caius Fabius · 10-30-2002, 12:20 AM

I am reading "Roman Comedy" by Kenneth McLeish, and basically it is an advertisement for "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum" or even "Up, Pompeii" or "Messalina, Messalina". These films seem to "get" the spirit of Roman comedy, even though or even because they are broad in delivery, have crude humor, rely on physical comedy and predictable plots! This is very "Roman"! 
 
In the same way there is a style to "Roman Tragedy" that demands a broad and "over the top" delivery, the predictable plot and the moral in summation. Shakespeare often used Roman works as the basis for his own creations, (showing that he was literate). The Romans usually told a "large" story on stage, and were fond of color in language and setting. 
 
On a side note, am I the only one who sat through "Titus" with Anthony Hopkins? I wish they would have set in ancient Rome, but it has plenty of Roman themes, even so. 
 
I am still looking for some ancient period films I haven't seen, so I can add them to my Christmas wish list!

Caius Fabius · 11-18-2002, 03:03 AM

So far I have only run out and added one film from this list to my collection, "Sign of the Cross". I did add "Pharaoh" as well, but it wasn't mentioned, was it? Nice military scenes, interesting story line. I think it is originally German? Anyway, you are running out of time to put in your list and walk away with a Saturnalia prize! Only 12 days left before the contest closes! 
I am sitting here looking at the prize denarius as I type, which proves I did learn a little something in high school, how to watch the girls while pretending to type, or something like that. 
 
............. oooops! "Just before class started, I looked in the big book where all the world's history is written, and it said...." Neil J. Hackett, PhD ancient history, professor OSU, 1987

Gashford · 11-18-2002, 02:08 PM

Hello all 
 
I missed this one, I hope I am not to late. 
 
Well here goes, again in no particular order: 
 
Demetrius and the Gladiators (Sequel to the Robe) 
Cleopatra 
Chelmsford 123 (TV series - Comedy) 
Spartacus 
300 Spartans (for those interested it has just been remade, release date TBC) 
The Odyssey (1997 Armand Assante) 
Ben Hur (1929ish, B&W) closer to the novel than the later one. 
 
Well there is my seven, hope its interesting. 
 
Graham

rekirts · 11-18-2002, 03:48 PM

Sorry, but I will never agree that Roman historical movies should be overly melodramatic. These movies were not Roman plays and they are not being done on stage. I have some experience in theatre and I do agree that if you are presenting an ancient Roman play, it would be advisable to present it as the Romans would have done it--over the top. In fact, I would love to see that. Even if you are doing one of these plays as a movie, that may be fine as well. But the movies I referred to were not Roman plays. 
 
When I see an historical movie, I want it to be as accurate and realistic as possible--a very rare occurance. These movies were not done like Roman plays, they were done in 50's and 60's dramatic syle with intense, anguished close-ups (that you could never see in a Roman theatre), intensified with melodramatic music. If that's your taste, fine, but it isn't mine. 
 
Wendy

Caius Fabius · 11-18-2002, 07:04 PM

Chelmsford123? what is this about? Tell me more! 
 
 
To have historical films without melodramatic music, you would have to get rid of almost all musical scores, but that is how the modern director conveys emotion. The modern conventions of audio-video presentations are just as stilted as the conventions of the Ancient Romans, or the Elizabethian theatre. Bad acting doesn't make a film unhistorical. 
The musical scores of the 1950's and 60's are no worse and no better than modern musical scores, just different. The score from "Gladiator" has moments of beauty, and moments of being a clumsy elephant, stomping upon the various scenes. The same is true of the score of "Ben Hur", or "Spartacus" or almost any film presentation. 
The different camera techniques, (and computer techniques) also do not make a film historical or unhistorical. I have been in "live theatre", "theatre in the round" and even in filming as an "extra". The different stage crafts for each are not always pleasing to everyone. Some forms of stagecraft actually demand "over dramatical acting"! 
You may not like such a convention, but that in itself does not make the film "unhistorical". I would think that a historical film has a historical "theme", a good basis in historical "fact", has been well researched for anachronism in costuming, props, and interaction, and attempts to tell a historical event in a way that the contemporary audience can relate to. I would not consider attending an actual Greek play, in the actual Greek style to be a bad thing, but if it were translated for the masses (or subtitled, even better in film) and a matched to a modern score that conveys the similar emotions and information that were previously shown by the chorus, it would still count as "historical" in my understanding. 
A film where a time traveler goes back in time, teaches a band of Helveti about gunpoowder, hot air balloons, and rock and roll; then leads them against the Roman empire, and finally founds the "Norman" empire, is really not going to fit, no matter how well the camerawork and score are not melodramatic and ponderous. (Norman's Incredible Adventure). 
A film where Cleopatra seduces Trajan, or Commodus is murdered by a gladiator in the arena needs some help, especially when the costumes are 300-400 years out of date! 
I would love to see the remake of "300 Spartans", because my original film video tape is wearing a bit. I would love to see Roman soldiers in hamata follow C. J. Caesar as he attacks the Gallic rebels at Alesi, with only period music, and battle formations, but .... to negate the historical value of some films from the 1950's and 60's because so much more knowledge has been discovered, and because you don't like the music seems a bit harsh! 
 
So far, it would seem some guy named "Roberts" is winning the denarius, but there is still time to add films that make me run out and add them to my collection. If you want to give a synopsis of why this or that film needs to be viewed, OR if you have a film that you can offer as a Great Example instead of these "over dramatic" films, please hurry and add your idea! Time passes.

rekirts · 11-18-2002, 09:14 PM

Caius, I think you missed my point completely. First of all, I never at any time said those movies weren't historically accurate. Quite franky, I don't know how accurate they are. What I said was that the acting and/or music was too sappy for my taste. Britannicus said that the acting should be that way because that's how the Romans would have done it, but my point is *these were not Roman plays* they were 20th century movies. That's like saying that if we do a movie about the 1950's today we need to make sure any married couples only sleep in twin beds, their kisses can only last a proscribed amount of time and no bad language can be used at all-- because that's the way movies were made in the 1950's. It might not be what life was really like, but, hey, that's how they portrayed it then, so that's how we have to do it now. Hogwash! We are allowed to portray things more realistically now so why not take advantage of it to show people living as they really did rather than as some censor pretended they did. I can tell you right now that my parents never had twin beds! If some producer in 2003 wants to do a movie taking place in the fifties, in the fifties stye, fine, but that's his artistic choice, not a requirement. 
 
There are many styles of production in theatre and movies and not all of us like all of them. This just happens to be one style that I am not overly fond of. I have no problem with melodrama as such, but it is a form with certain conventions that is not actually meant to be taken seriously so if you thrust it into a serious production, well, as I said, it's not to my taste. If it is to your taste more power to you. But please don't misunderstand my point. 
 
To reiterate--just because a movie is set in Roman times, doesn't mean it has to be done like a Roman play. Also my original stated opinion that I find those movies sappy is not going to change, any more than any one else's who finds them wonderful. 
 
Wendy

11-18-2002, 09:52 PM

Ok, Graham, is this the movie that is based on the book by Steven Pressfield, called "Gates of Fire", which was in turn based on the battle of Thermopylae? I read a website which spoke of the movie possibly casting Bruce Willis and George Clooney,and that release would be sometime in 2003. Or did someone simply re-make the old movie? 
Magnus/Matt 
Optio 
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix"

Caius Fabius · 11-19-2002, 03:05 AM

Okay Wendy, that makes sense, as far as not liking the old films but what alternatives do you have to tempt my movie viewing taste buds? I have all kinds of films, in several languages.... tell me your favorites! "Just before class started, I looked in the big book where all the world's history is written, and it said...." Neil J. Hackett, PhD ancient history, professor OSU, 1987

Gashford · 11-19-2002, 08:12 AM

Hello all 
 
First off. Chelmsford 123 was a British TV series about a group of British Tribesmen in Chelmsford in 123AD and their attempts to get rid of the Roman giverner or just 'get one over'. It only ran for one or two series, wasn't a big hit but I used to enjoy it. 
 
300 Spartans. I am not sure of the exact details of teh remake to be honest, I just know about it because when they were casting about for extras we read about it, but my full details are hazy. 
 
Finally, the 50 and 60's films tend to come up because they are the only ones that have ever really been made. Perhaps with gladiator and a sequel in the offing we might see another glut of Romanesque films that we can call on. 
 
And lastly I would also like to add I, Claudius because I know one of the guys responsible for some of the costumes and I like those old BBC theatre for TV productions, now how about that deneri? 
 
All the best 
 
Graham

rekirts · 11-20-2002, 04:20 PM

Caius, I wish I could tell you about a movie set in ancient times that you have not heard of, but I'm pretty sure I haven't seen anything you don't already know about. As gashford said, maybe there will be more in the near future. I did like the Masada mini-series, and Gladiator had its good points. I mostly like watching those movies, even the sappy ones, to get into the atmosphere of ancient times. Even though they are not perfect, they're all we've got. 
 
Wendy

Muzzaguchi · 11-21-2002, 11:37 AM

Hi 
 
I have just got hold of Spartacus and the Ten gladiators and Spartacus and the seven maginificant gladiators - they will probably both be very bad but that is half the fun. 
 
Cheers 
 
Murray It is an unscrupulous intellect that does not pay Antiquity its due reverence - Erasmus of Rotterdam 
 
'Modern history, like a deaf man, answers questions no one asks' - Tolstoy War and Peace Ep. ii.1

Caius Fabius · 11-29-2002, 03:31 AM

I still haven't found the Scipio Africanus film, Murray, but you have me still looking so I guess you have the first place, but I will send a Roman coin to everyone who answered this thread. You can email me a mailing address at: 
[email protected] 
Silver Denarius of Septimus Servillius, goes to "Muzzaguchi". 
A close second to J.M. Roberts, who will receive a bronze coin. 
Additional various bronze coins, (unattributed) to anyone else who posted on this topic. 
 
Don't worry, I'll have another contest someday. 
 
NOTE:!!!! 
If you don't send your mailing address (and your RAT name if applicable) really soon, I will be unable to send you your Roman Coin in time for Saturnalia!!! Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=caiusfabius>Caius Fabius</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ROMANISROMANORVM/files/C%20Fabius%201988b.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 12/6/02 5:27:04 am

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