If Alexander had headed west.

[P. Lilius Frugius Simius]

I started to write a 'What-if' exactly about this, starting from the question: "what if Alexander survived in Babilon?".

My reasoning was like this: after surviving, he is forced to return to Macedon to control Greek revolts (again), and leave Arabia untouched for the time being.

The time is right for the Samnite Wars, where Rome basically crushed the Etruscans and, after some military campaigns, most of the Northern Italy.

Why did Alex go to Italy? The Greek colonies in Magna Graecia and Sicily started to feel threatened by Rome and asked for help to the powerful Macedon Empire. Illyria went first, then he started to roam southwards, fighting and winning for his cause the different Italian tribes, until he manages to force the Samnites under his arm. A similar battle to Cannae is issued nearby (control of the Eastern coast is vital for the Romans, for Alex's reinforcements will come by ship from Illyria and Greece) and I stopped when I realized I was mimicking Hannibal's story with a different flavor.

But it sure was fun! I had Macedonian phalanxes, Celtic tribes, Etruscan phalanxes (classical hoplite style), Samnite echelon legions, the Republican pre-Livy army, and dozens of other armies and formations, it was such a fun exercise that I even draw the battles, and how they could have developed...

BTW, even without most of his commanders (assasinated by dear Olympias in a court coup in the fashion of harem politics) and most of his veterans retired, Alexander (alongside his son) managed to defeat most of the Italians at the Po and downwards through the Eastern coast...

The next phase (winter is here!) was asking for help to the Carthaginians (ironically) and Greek allies to stop Rome on her toes, which started to sound too much to Pyrrus... It was a fun exercise, nevertheless, for after Rome, the Greek allies, Sicily and Carthage would follow suit, of course... :-) )

And next, India and Catay! Bwah hah hah! (evil laughing) Ahem...

Just some thoughts (I've forgotten most of the details by now, but I recall having a pretty good grasp of Republican Rome, Italian geography and the Italian tribes around Latium, it was educative and fun, sadly I have a pretty poor memory...)

Regards!

[Robert Vermaat]

Illyria went first, then he started to roam southwards, fighting and winning for his cause the different Italian tribes, until he manages to force the Samnites under his arm. A similar battle to Cannae is issued nearby (control of the Eastern coast is vital for the Romans, for Alex's reinforcements will come by ship from Illyria and Greece) and I stopped when I realized I was mimicking Hannibal's story with a different flavor.

Exactly, and I think this one cannot do. Hannibal only entered the peninsula when Rome was much stronger and the Italians much weaker. I also think that if a superpower like Macedon had entered the Italian fray, most Italians would have been quick to ally themselves with Alexander. I'm not sure how the Etruscans would have reacted (can we envisage an Etruscan-Roman alliance? hock: ), but the Italian Celts would have been more trouble to Alexander, maybe drawing other Celts from across the Alps?

I see no Alexandrian Hannibal-like campaign though, he would have had it much easier. I also think that Rome, today, would yet be another city like maybe Florence....

[P. Lilius Frugius Simius]

Robert,

Agreed... The main differences would be in the fact that Rome wouldn't be able to extract manpower from as many estates as She did during the Second Punic War (and it would have a less powerful army) and that Alexander would have full support from the military (not like Hannibal, who basically was left in Italy for years without support from Carthage): Rome would have fallen after a siege and become a normal city, like so many others...

Actually, in my story, the only logical course of action for the Romans would have been, ironically, to gain support from Carthage, as Alexander would be their greatest threat (after taking Rome and securing Sicily Carthage woul be extremely vulnerable). OTOH, the battle for the Adriatic Sea was hard and extremely important to stop Alexander from bringing in Kardakes from Persia and Egypt (which was about to happen the next Spring, once the weather would let the ships travel from Greece, where they would stop for the winter).

While writing, I tried to be coherent with the political situation in Italy at the moment, and after defeating the Venetians, the battle at the Po would have been a compromise with all the Alpine Celts to ally themselves with Alexander for the sake of gold and territories: all the territories North to the (by the time really smallish) Etruscan lands would have been Celtic, allied to Macedon and as a `buffer zone' to the Gaul and German tribes from the North and Beyond-the-Alps, while the Venetians and Illyrians would have served as manpower sources (like they were later on Roman Empire times) and buffer to the Steppes up to the Istros (Danube) like it happened later...

I don't think Alexander would have gone so far as to Iberia, unless until Carthage was down, and the necessity to "close" the Mediterranean Sea would have arisen... Basically the Roman Empire History, but sooner and with a different flavor to it: even when many things look arbitrary, most of the political and military movements in the past were logical and followed one purpose: the securization of food and metal sources and the defense from nomad tribes that kept pouring from the Russian steppes until the last Turckic invasions were stopped (i.e. Germans of all kinds, Darmatians, Alans, Huns, Slavonic, etc...)

Changing some names and language, I doubt the impact of a powerful Macedon Empire from Iberia to India would have been so big as to change the general course of affairs as they were after that: the Northern boundaries in Europe, Eurasia and Far East would have been under the "constant" assault of nomadic tribes of arian, slavic, hunnic and other tipes from the steppes, and the efforts to protect such a huge limes would have been a stretch to the Macedonian Empire as they proved to be to the Diodochi empires, Parthian and Sassanid Empires and, finally, Rome.

Anyway, many things, including the linguistic landscape of Europe, would have been very different! And one cannot help but to especulate some times... :-) )

Best regards!

[Eleatic Guest]

Well... I do not know what would have happened.
But I know what Titus Livius (Livy for friends) thought, -or wanted to think-
in one of the earliest recorded cases of sci-fi writing (in its 'ucrony' variant). The beginning of hte text shows Livy at his most 'human' as a man interested in "what ifs"

This text, in which Livy indulged in a lot of wishful thinking, is not as well-known as it deserves, and makes for a good read... and even a good wargames campaign idea. In any case, it is always a good idea to have a look at original sources to see what they though about issues we now discuss! Enjoy it (Livy IX, 17-19):

Transl. taken from http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/txt/ah/Livy/Livy09.html

This may be the first detailed what-if scenario in historiography.

This is definitely a major revelation!

[Eleatic Guest]

PS: Is Livy's account more to be viewed more as counterfactual history or as alternate history?

To me, it looks like the former prides itself to be the more scientific form of the later.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterfactual_history
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternate_ ... 29#_note-0

[Thersites]

I'm glad you enjoyed it. As I said, it is a little known piece, and deserves to be read. Mostly, because it offers one of these most rare glimpses of an ancient author scratching his head and pondering... what if? . Livy looks almost human, modern in a sense, we can actually imagine him lying on his kline and wondering about Alternate History or Counterfactual or whatever...

Also, it shows that all along the thread of History the occupations of otiose scholars are -and have always been- the same:... what if Hannibla had...? What if...? :wink:

[Eleatic Guest]

Is there an ancient 'What if Hannibal had?'