Small Tornado in London

[Robert Vermaat]

Daniele,

You're absolutely right, these developments are surely worrying. But we better not go pointing fingers to other parts of the world before we get our our act together. it's useless to deny other economies the wish to emulate our (bad) lifestyles, and even worse to sit on our backs whilst we should lead by example.

India and China already know well enough the devastating effects of the 'new climate' in terms of freak weather, and what it can cost their economies. They will understand, sooner than we did, that 'business as usual is not the way forward. And even if they may not yet act on it, it's just a matter of time before they will.

Besides that, they're the great 'economic equaliser'. Remember that we were so afraid of the other Asian economies, Japan, Korea, Taiwan? They were booming so fast we feared that every car and piece of electronic would soon be produced outside Europe. Has it? Of course not. When economies boom, workers’ demands grow (with their influence and importance for the economy), and as a result salaries rise, causing economic differences to be levelled. And always, as it has turned out so far at least, repressive governments found that they cannot maintain an iron grip on their populations while at the same time expect economic growth. This happened in South America, in Eastern Europe, I expect it also for China in the long run.

That does not make Asia a lesser threat. I’m aware of that. Singapore is an example of a state-controlled and repressive system, yet with a booming economy. But whilst businesses are now transported to these countries, the rate of that production move may slow down.

I hope. If not, we in Europe (or the Old World as were now called) should prepare to earn our income from our internal market and tourism.

ALL THE MORE REASON TO CHERISH OUR ROMAN PAST!!!!! :!: :!: :!:

[Tarbicus]

This happened in South America, in Eastern Europe, I expect it also for China in the long run.

I wouldn't be so sure about China not being able to maintain its iron grip. The transition to a free market in Eastern Europe couldn't have been more different to China's where the Party kept an iron grip on dissent and protest, carefully managing the economy unlike their counterparts elsewhere in the world. Some democratic change is happening, slowly, but the state is determined to ensure it doesn't lead to the nation's economic collapse and sweeping political reform; let's face it, they're making a very successful job of it. I also hope they are aware of the consequences of unchecked carbon emission, which would threaten any stability there when millions are displaced within their borders from flooding and the rest.

[TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS]

Robert wrote:

But we better not go pointing fingers to other parts of the world before we get our our act together. it's useless to deny other economies the wish to emulate our (bad) lifestyles, and even worse to sit on our backs whilst we should lead by example.

200% right! And, I don't want to be misinterpreted (as I tried to do in my previous messages): I don't point fingers at all, I just admit to speak as egoist, thinking often more to my daughter's future than other, I admit.
So maybe I could be the less right guy to show the way by example, as I drive cars, fly planes, use plastics, use a lot of energy, make consumption like the main part of people overhere. Even if in my small way through my working as building/gas-pipelines contractor and architect/designer I tried to do something to stop our generalized madness, just drops in the ocean.

Although I always believe firmly that the good example be the strongest weapon. Even if the asian vision of the life is rather different about many things we consider obvious and they do not and vice-versa, that could reduce the effects of our attempts of giving good examples.

Now we have to face two options:

India and China already know well enough the devastating effects of the 'new climate' in terms of freak weather, and what it can cost their economies. They will understand, sooner than we did, that 'business as usual is not the way forward. And even if they may not yet act on it, it's just a matter of time before they will.

1) They are so intelligent to quickly understand that the future of their business and their complete success passes through sustainableness

2) They don't understand that and blackmail us by environment matter to pretend a high bill in return for their care of reducing pollution

In the first case the planet could be save for a while, but they will become so powerful that...
In the second case we are f****d

I hope. If not, we in Europe (or the Old World as were now called) should prepare to earn our income from our internal market and tourism.

Absolutely true again, and we will become the cultural vacations place for them, like they were (and are yet) for us. So that's the destiny of my Italia, for example? No more industries, agriculture, research? Just restaurants, hotels, museums? And waiters? It could be sad...

ALL THE MORE REASON TO CHERISH OUR ROMAN PAST!!!!!

500% agreed, but just for tourism? What a waste! Could'nt we try to consider all this thing more strategically? ( I don't tell of "weapons war", I tell of cleverness war...)

Vale,

[TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS]

Jim wrote:

Code:

let's face it, they're making a very successful job of it.

300% Agreed.

So, you think they are more clever than us? Is this good or not?
Are we destined to be overcome? Or you believe in a general future harmony with them? Will they need of us as customers yet, or they (billions) will be enough for a self-working (all-asian) market)?

Vale,

[Robert Vermaat]

This happened in South America, in Eastern Europe, I expect it also for China in the long run.

I wouldn't be so sure about China not being able to maintain its iron grip. The transition to a free market in Eastern Europe couldn't have been more different to China's where the Party kept an iron grip on dissent and protest, carefully managing the economy unlike their counterparts elsewhere in the world.

True, but if China (as some fear) truly wants do dominate world economy and foreign nations by becoming that economic superpower, they can't do that from inside China. Chinese will have to start working abroad in massive numbers. And as soon as that happens, they will start wanting different things.
Also, China has only very very recently seen civil unrest about wages and stuff like that. I foresee a Korean-like development there,leading to the levelling of at least some economic differences, namely cheap Chinese labour becoming less cheap. India will hopefully follow Korea and Taiwan somewhat sooner. And as soon as labour is not that much cheaper anymore, work might not have to be done there anywmore.

Now we have to face two options:

India and China already know well enough the devastating effects of the 'new climate' in terms of freak weather, and what it can cost their economies. They will understand, sooner than we did, that 'business as usual is not the way forward. And even if they may not yet act on it, it's just a matter of time before they will.

1) They are so intelligent to quickly understand that the future of their business and their complete success passes through sustainableness
2) They don't understand that and blackmail us by environment matter to pretend a high bill in return for their care of reducing pollution
In the first case the planet could be save for a while, but they will become so powerful that...
In the second case we are f****d

Since the problems are costing them milliuons if not billions each year already I can assure you that both countries have already realised that... Both have vast stretches of coastal plains that will vanish a lot sooner than The Netherlands or even Venice! Well, Venice and Bangladesh can be compared... :? Do you have relatives in the Po valley? Best tell them to move within the next 10 years, that area might beecome Europe's Bangladesh soon....

I hope. If not, we in Europe (or the Old World as were now called) should prepare to earn our income from our internal market and tourism.

Absolutely true again, and we will become the cultural vacations place for them, like they were (and are yet) for us. So that's the destiny of my Italia, for example? No more industries, agriculture, research? Just restaurants, hotels, museums? And waiters? It could be sad...

Have we not treated the rest of the world any different over the past 200 years? We invented mass tourism! You think the s.x industry of southeast Asia would exist without us westerners? I truly can't imagine a sadder and more inhuman form of slavery when you have to sell your children to tourists for small change just so you can keep feeding the rest of them...
I dread to think our grandchildren might suffer that fate, and I don't think it will happen, but some would call that justice for our past 200 years of arrogance..

ALL THE MORE REASON TO CHERISH OUR ROMAN PAST!!!!!

500% agreed, but just for tourism? What a waste!

Waste? How so? Tourism is the most single economic force that has led us to preserve our ancient remains! Walls were broken down to make room for modern cities, other remains have been levelled for parking lots and housing - only when there's a chance of tourism they are saved! Tourism must not be underestimated, some nations base their national income on it!

Another change that might save us is the environment itself. Fossil fuels are getting scarcer by the day, and oil is harder to find then ever. Rising fuel prices will mean rising transport prices, whhich will beciome as serious threat to current world trade (yes I know, fresh flowers being transported from The Netherlands by plane :!: to New York markets that same day is luxury beyond reason!!!), and to Asian products being sold cheaply here. Not all that good for our wallet, but some jobs may not transfer to China!

[M. Demetrius]

I find it totally fantastic, in the literal meaning, that Canada has a higher carbon emission level than higher populated, European countries!

Hydrocarbon emissions from conifer forests. The second largest conifer forest is in Canada; the largest in Siberia. It doesn't matter where the airborn hydrocarbons come from, a fir tree or a Cadillac, in the end, if they get into the air, they're there.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

I agree vehemently with Robert on this one and disagree with all of those who portray a fear of the east....... this in my view is as sad as the cold war fear of the so-called communist hordes wanting to destroy our petty western world.

M.VIB.M.

we are in this together, so we should try and solve this in a harmonious manner......

HOWEVER!!!! do not forget that we ourselves with our imperialistic western views have started all this by keeping africa poor, and others enslaved or in a strong economical dependance.......

[TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS]

Robert wrote:

Since the problems are costing them milliuons if not billions each year already I can assure you that both countries have already realised that...

I'd like to know the sources, please (not from partizan istitutions, if possible).

From NewScientist news (November 2006), Catherine Brahic tells us that:

Carbon emissions rising faster than ever

Far from slowing down, global carbon dioxide emissions are rising faster than before, said a gathering of scientists in Beijing on Friday.

Between 2000 and 2005, emissions grew four times faster than in the preceding 10 years, according to researchers at the Global Carbon Project, a consortium of international researchers. Global growth rates were 0.8% from 1990 to 1999. From 2000 to 2005, they reached 3.2%.

Though alarming, the figures confirm expectations. "They make intuitive sense to me," says Jim Watson, deputy leader of the energy programme at the Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research, UK.

[size=150:1akmaza0]One likely contributor is China, whose emissions slowed at end of the 1990s before rising again. China is now the world’s second largest emitter of greenhouse gases after the US. On Tuesday, the International Energy Agency released a report predicting that it would become the world’s top emitter by 2030 (see World faces 'dirty, insecure' energy future).[/size]

Other growing developing countries, such as [size=150:1akmaza0]India[/size] and Brazil, are also fast becoming large emitters.

The US, meanwhile, is taking no nationwide action to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. And the European Union Emissions Trading Scheme - created to help EU nations abide by their agreed Kyoto Protocol emissions limits - failed to do so in 2005, its first year of operation. It is unlikely to do so until its second phase of operation, which begins in 2008.

Unacceptably high

The Global Carbon Project report shows that carbon dioxide emissions over the last five years resembled one of the scenarios which the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change uses to predict how the world will change with greenhouse gas emissions. The “A1Bâ€

[Tarbicus]

Robert wrote:

Have we not treated the rest of the world any different over the past 200 years? We invented mass tourism! You think the s.x industry of southeast Asia would exist without us westerners? I truly can't imagine a sadder and more inhuman form of slavery when you have to sell your children to tourists for small change just so you can keep feeding the rest of them...
I dread to think our grandchildren might suffer that fate, and I don't think it will happen, but some would call that justice for our past 200 years of arrogance..

Ok, if you think so, and that we (present Europeans) so criminal, let's suicide all (sons too) immediately and let directly to them the "new world" to expiate! After all, normally, we have not ten/twelve sons per family..., We are not totally guilty for that! If I did twelve sons, I'd not have enough food for them too, but better to die and sell my heart, loins and eyes, THAN SELLING THE SONS! :x
In Italia, many poor farmers families in the past century did 8-10 sons for agricolture working, hard, surely, but they NEVER have sold their sons (for s*x, or other)!

Can we all steer clear of these off-topic subjects please?

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

GUESS WHAT!!! EVERYONE BUYING DEEPEEKA STUFF IS ADDING TO THE GREENHOUSE EFFECT SINCE DEEPEEKA FORGES ARE NOT ENVIRONMENTALLY SAFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How's that for a change?

M.VIB.M.

[Cornelius Quintus]

GUESS WHAT!!! EVERYONE BUYING DEEPEEKA STUFF IS ADDING TO THE GREENHOUSE EFFECT SINCE DEEPEEKA FORGES ARE NOT ENVIRONMENTALLY SAFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ave M.VIB.M.,

for a start, they could cover all shipped metal items with an ozon layer instead of oil :lol:

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Brilliant!!!!!!!!!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

LAUDES!!!!!!

M.VIB.M.

[Cornelius Quintus]

Ave M.VIB.M.

thanks!

You know, I try both - to save our environment and the sources of high quality re-enactment stuff :wink:

Actually, here in Northern Germany we also live at the current sea level. No mountains or sky-scrapers to move upwards... :roll:

Perhaps it's time to look for a retiarius' kit with tridens and rete - just before the first fishes will enter my living room :wink:

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Same here in the Netherlands!

i am training dolphins at the moment to prevent the wrath of Neptvnvs!

M.VIB.M.

[Robert Vermaat]

At the moment, force 10 gales of 110 km/h are taking care of my last roses (which I should not see in midwinter anyway hock: ) while on the ground the daffodils are sprouting from their bulbs....

Last snow seen here was early March, last frost too. This year was the hottest around here ever measured.