segmentata

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Thats why ill probably use both!

i also like the pork idea!

M.VIB.M.

[Martin Wallgren]

How many different patterns of segmentata is found partly in finds or depicted?

I just think of all the different styles and models of helmets there is during the period of Segs. I have a suspision that the roman armies didn´t show as much confirmity as we tend to belive, maybe it´s a hollywoodism or reenactorism to think of it as uniform outfit.

Any thoughts on this?

[Goffredo]

The propaganda columns of Trajan and Marcus show what the people of Rome would have recongized as the typical look of the army of the powerful and efficient army of most powerful emperors. To say that segmentata is a poor man's armor is really quite funny! At least for me. I find it very funny to think that the conventional representations of the almighty armies of powerful Trajan and Marcus actually show the soldiers in pesant and cheap armor! Anyone at the time that really knew the business of fighting would have been tickled sick and snickered at the irony.

Come now! Do your really believe that segmentata was a poor man's armor and that the typical legionary was too poor to afford a really good armor?

If you answer saying that segmentata was far from being used by 100% of the legionaries then I humbly reply that it must have been used widely enough to have been used as a stylized representation for propagana art in Rome itself, the very capital of the empire, where everyone that counted would have seen it!

[Martin Wallgren]

The propaganda columns of Trajan and Marcus show what the people of Rome would have recongized as the typical look of the army of the powerful and efficient army of most powerful emperors. To say that segmentata is a poor man's armor is really quite funny! At least for me. I find it very funny to think that the conventional representations of the almighty armies of powerful Trajan and Marcus actually show the soldiers in pesant and cheap armor! Anyone at the time that really knew the business of fighting would have been tickled sick and snickered at the irony.

Come now! Do your really believe that segmentata was a poor man's armor and that the typical legionary was too poor to afford a really good armor?

If you answer saying that segmentata was far from being used by 100% of the legionaries then I humbly reply that it must have been used widely enough to have been used as a stylized representation for propagana art in Rome itself, the very capital of the empire, where everyone that counted would have seen it!

Could you incert a qoute or who you answering, it gets hard to follow the thread otherwise. I mean who did you direct your post too?

Just a wish!

[Matthew Amt]

How many different patterns of segmentata is found partly in finds or depicted?

Well, from archeological finds we generally recognize Kalkriese A and B; Corbridge A and B/C; and Newstead with a couple variations of main hinge. The Stillfried girdle sections are basically Newstead but could be considered their own style, and the Iza girdle plate is similar to those but has slightly different fittings. Other Newstead-ish pieces come from Carlisle, Eining, Zugmantel, and other places. Corbridge parts are found all over the place, and pieces from Chichester could be their own variant (though they may also reflect Kalkriese construction, too!).

If you want to pick over Trajan's Column with a magnifier, you might decide you see 3 or 4 variations of segmentata there. Mike Bishop likes the later Alba Julia lorica, which really does seem to be its own animal, whereas lots of loricae seen in other 2nd to 3rd century artwork are too stylized to categorize with any real hope.

I have a suspision that the roman armies didn´t show as much confirmity as we tend to belive, maybe it´s a hollywoodism or reenactorism to think of it as uniform outfit.

Oh, I don't think reenactors are uniform in a modern sense at all! Even in any particular unit, get up close to them and you'll find that no two helmets, belts, or swords match. Sure, there may be a preponderance of segmentata, but for the first century that still seems appropriate. But we make them ourselves or get them from different manufacturers, so they're all different in their details. Some guys are wearing mail, anyway. Shields vary in size and shape, and are painted by different people even if the emblems nominally match. Generally we go by the belief that legionaries were equipped to a uniform level, but not with matching gear. But we understand that even THAT much conformity may be more than there was!

Vale,

Matthew

[Goffredo]

Sorry for not refering. It is a bad habit of mine. What is worse is that I only realized after posting my reaction that the original claim is an old one. But is was done by our good and very active DAN HOWARD. It was made back in april 2005 (and noboby besides CRIPSUS made any comment; no real contest!):

"There isn't a single military tactic ever invented that would favour segmentata armour over mail armour. Mail was worn by the Romans before the introduction of the segmentata. Mail was in use during the use of segmentata. Mail was in use after the use of segmentata. There isn't a single depiction of an officer or centurio wearing segmentata (though the sample size is infuriatingly small). It seems to me that segmentata is peasant armour - only worn by those who couldn't afford something better. The phasing out of segmentata occurred around the same time that the state took over control of the fabricae. Mail armour is equal or superior to segmentata in every sense except that it is more expensive to produce and is heavier. IMO segmentata was phased out because the cost of producing mail was reduced to the point that segmentata was no longer considered viable by the state."

bye bye

[Dan Howard]

I'll retract when someone demonstrates that segmentata was preferred over mail by any member of a Roman army.

[Goffredo]

Hi Dan
any comment on my comment of segmentata's use in propaganda art?
Cheers

[Dan Howard]

Why do modern artists stick horns on the helmets of vikings even though many of them know they were never worn historically?

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

horns are indeed more common on Samurai helmets.... i have not seen any so called barbarian helmets with horns yet in any archeological find.....

M.VIB.M.

[Comerus Gallus]

All Started in the Opera singing shows...


It was the Gauls instead that had horn right.

[Virilis]

Yes, I think many celtic items were interpreted as a viking artefacts in the 19 century and that is one reason for this misinterpretation. Was the famous "Gundestrup Cauldron" one such item?

[Peroni]

i have not seen any so called barbarian helmets with horns yet in any archeological find.....

Here's one.. (admittedly not real horns!)


A very similar metal 'horn' was also dredged up from the Kessel/Lith region of Holland.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

I meant the classical, conical shaped viking helmet....

ie this one:



M.VIB.M.

your picture is of a helmet with insect antennae :lol:

[lup_alb]

That helmet is a thracian one, found somewhere in present day Bulgaria. It seems that it has also cheek plates and a horse hair crest on the middle. Anyway that is the image of the reconstructed helmet I saw. You can find it "The Thracians" Osprey book.