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Quote:was the Roman legion less uniform as we like to hope... and was the only REAL distinction found in the equipment of the highest officers, namely the Hellenistic muscled cuirass............?
Why hope? I don't like those 'Hollywood-type' legions anyway, all dressed as if they were replicated from a single original.  Bring on the rag-tag bunch of heroes!
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Quote:I must say i agree there must have been a definete difference in status by wearing different equipment...
but has it been described somewhere in the sources? was there a rule for it?
these days, a lot of Centurii, auxiliarii, equiti, and archers etcetera wear hamata in re-enactment... but you also see the odd Miles gregarivs walking about in it...... are they all wrong?
or was the Roman legion less uniform as we like to hope... and was the only REAL distinction found in the equipment of the highest officers, namely the Hellenistic muscled cuirass............?
M.VIB.M.
Of course the low rankers wore hamata, and squamata, etc. I, for one, certainly don't hope there was mass uniformity, and I've never believed it was the case. But it would seem the higher ranks didn't wear segs. I never said I think legionaries didn't wear hamata.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
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nor do I personally hope the legions were uniform.. i personally like diversity in stead of uniformity... like in the japanese samurai armies.....
but there seems to be a tendency amongst some groups and people to have an image of a uniform Roman legion, while all of our explorations into this matter clearly convinces us otherwise.......
:wink:
M.VIB.M.
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Quote:I must say i agree there must have been a definete difference in status by wearing different equipment...
but has it been described somewhere in the sources? was there a rule for it?
There were distinctions, apparently. Here is Tacitus describing what happened in Rome in AD69 when Otho siezed power:
'He then ordered the armamentarium to be opened. Weapons were promptly carried off without regard for military custom and rank, which distinguished the praetorian from legionary by their insignia. Helmets and shields meant for auxiliaries added to the confusion.' Hist. I,38
The word insignia can of course cover a multitude of sins, but those broad distinctions – between legionaries and praetorians, accomplished by the different types of standards, and between citizen troops ( segmentata-clad) and auxiliaries (other types of armour) – are what is depicted on Trajan's Column. They may even have been further enhanced there by the use of colour so that the overall effect of the monument was visible to the layman on the ground in a sort of visual shorthand, even if the subtleties of the detail were incomprehensible. You'll need to see Coulston's forthcoming book on the Column to see all this type of stuff (particularly the importance of status differentials) laid out at length.
Mike Bishop
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Thank you very much Mike for the info!
looking forward to the book!!!
you also mention colour distinction on the column... would that be in Tvnicae, shield-emblems or also in armour? I know that some Greek helmets have been found with clear paint-residu, could that also have been the case in Roman helmets?
Best wishes,
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Quote:As you know there were 2 dacian-roman wars and after the first war is said thet Trajan ordered the modification of the roman equipment to withstand the deadly blows of the dacian falx and to form specialized units to deal with the falxmen.
Where is that said? As I understand it, it is purely modern theory that the cross-bracing on the helmets, manicae, and greaves were added as responses to the falx. I think that's a good theory, don't get me wrong, but bear in mind that those items are found in many parts of the Empire where the falx was not used. There is also no reason to suspect that the Emperor himself had any hand in these additions, that I know of.
Not to be dragging us farther off-topic, but don't get too carried away by the idea of "peasants wielding clubs" in Saxon/Norman times. The English had a very sophisticated militia system (comparable to Republican Rome!), and everyone who was liable for duty in the fyrd had to equip himself with certain items, including at least a shield and spear. Anyone who couldn't meet even that minimum didn't fight! So the whole idea of ragged and untrained peasants with clubs is mostly a modern myth. The Saxons were still a warrior culture, and it was common for a man to go around in public with his spear. There were even "spear control laws" to make it certain who was at fault if someone was wounded by a spear. All those guys on the Tapestry who have only shield and spear are not "peasant scum" but trained fyrdsmen who are perfectly adequately equipped according to the standards of the time. Many are even thegns or landowners. As usual, it's only the wealthy and in this case the housecarls who have armor.
Valete,
Matthew (aka Aelfric, Earl of Midgard!)
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
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Quote:You'll need to see Coulston's forthcoming book on the Column to see all this type of stuff (particularly the importance of status differentials) laid out at length.
Sounds good, Mike. Any rough idea of when it might be out?
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Quote:Sounds good, Mike. Any rough idea of when it might be out?
As ever, when digits get extracted. I still haven't finished the drawing because I am waiting for him to supply the things I need but I know it absolutely has to be out before November for the research evaluation thingy.
Mike Bishop
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Quote:Not to be dragging us farther off-topic, but don't get too carried away by the idea of "peasants wielding clubs" in Saxon/Norman times. The English had a very sophisticated militia system (comparable to Republican Rome!), and everyone who was liable for duty in the fyrd had to equip himself with certain items, including at least a shield and spear. Anyone who couldn't meet even that minimum didn't fight! So the whole idea of ragged and untrained peasants with clubs is mostly a modern myth. The Saxons were still a warrior culture, and it was common for a man to go around in public with his spear. There were even "spear control laws" to make it certain who was at fault if someone was wounded by a spear. All those guys on the Tapestry who have only shield and spear are not "peasant scum" but trained fyrdsmen who are perfectly adequately equipped according to the standards of the time. Many are even thegns or landowners. As usual, it's only the wealthy and in this case the housecarls who have armor.
Valete,
Matthew (aka Aelfric, Earl of Midgard!)
Absolutely, but there are two points of interest on the Bayeux Tapestry that are open to interpretation. The first is the Mace / Club like object being hurled through the air, which can be seen here: http://www.hastings1066.com/bayeux29.shtml and is open to various interpretations. To my mind it is significant that it occurs in the context of a Bow, hurled Spear and Hand Axe. The second is in the final extant part of the Tapestry, which can be seen here: http://www.hastings1066.com/bayeux35.shtml . Whether this is a squad of poorly armed Saxons making a run for it, Noble Saxons with Maces or something else is open to interpretation.
By comparison, if I recall correctly there are Unarmoured Club wielding troops depicted on Trajan's Column (or maybe Aurelius') fighting alongside more regular types.
Matthew James Stanham
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The first scene almost definitely doesn't depict a mace being hurled. The flanged mace didn't appear for centuries after Hastings. The second scene can't possibly be depicting soldiers wielding clubs for the reason Matt already outlined. Anyone without appropriate gear would be forbidden to fight.
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Quote:The first is the Mace / Club like object being hurled through the air, which can be seen here: http://www.hastings1066.com/bayeux29.shtml and is open to various interpretations.
An arrow in flight? Lots of arrows in shields to the right of it.
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Quote:The first scene almost definitely doesn't depict a mace being hurled. The flanged mace didn't appear for centuries after Hastings. The second scene can't possibly be depicting soldiers wielding clubs for the reason Matt already outlined. Anyone without appropriate gear would be forbidden to fight.
I have no problem with it being some sort of Mace and there were apparently Maces around in Europe during this period. It bears a resemblance to the rod like object carried by an individual (maybe Bishop Odo) to the left of William: http://www.hastings1066.com/bayeux26.shtml
Another explanation would be welcome, though.
Quote:An arrow in flight? Lots of arrows in shields to the right of it.
Could be Jim, but it doesn't look much like any of the others depicted; an interesting possibility, though, and one I hadn't considered.
As for the fleeing individuals, it's also unknown. I suspect some sort of symbolism, but no idea what.
Of course, the Mail Hauberks are another example of (misleading) stylisation with regard to Body Armour. Puts me in mind of the very tight Hamata's Jim was talking about a couple of months back.
Matthew James Stanham
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I think it's actually a mace. Check out the guy to the left, to the left of the one carrying a club.
[url:1ne0gler]http://www.hastings1066.com/bayeux26.shtml[/url]
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That's the one. Mind, it might look different close up.
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There is a group of dandily dressed individuals carrying this item being chased by armoured horsemen, towards the end of the tapestry. One appears to have an arrow in his eye! perhaps they are all royal family carrying scepters? Personally, and I could be wrong, but I think it looks like a mace to me!
Regards
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