Pugio

[Tarbicus]

The current soldiers, the majority, would take belts of leather with some light-fittings and probably without pugio.

A very bold statement, considering that soldiering could be both a poor occupation, but also very much a lucrative one depending on how much campaigning there was. As the rewards were shared between all soldiers, to very varying degrees, all of the evidence shows that the norm was for soldiers to retire wealthy or very comfortable, and was seen as a good career for a young man to get into. Don't forget the amount of gilding, tinning, niello, enamelling, and silvering that has been found on actual artefacts.

I don't buy your comment at all I'm afraid.

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

It he was carrying neither the hull, nor the armor of plates, nor the shield, nor the pilum, probably also it he them sold to Deepeeka.

When actual military people goes by the city where lives, they don't wear the M16, Kevlar helmet, etc.

Cinema give us the idea that a roman soldier alway wears complete equipment, but probably it happens very few times, only for the battle. Roman soldiers normally wears their belts, gladius and pugio. That items identified them for another people, like his particular way of wear the tunic, shorter than a civil cittoyen, like the slaves.

I think, too, that we have a very huge corpus of belts parts to think only a few soldiers wears it. The same can be applied to the pugiones.

[Peroni]

The Herculaneum soldier was also a carpenter (his tools were found) Maybe he was off-duty just doing some wood working to make extra money?

[marcii ulpi messala]

I know that the soldiers were not taking the equipment(team) inside the cities in his(her,your) permission, this was an irony on the previous response. When I refer to rich soldiers, it(he,she) is to the veterans with several campaigns in his(her,your) back and a consolidated salary, the beginners or the soldiers of short service in the army might not finance this way luxuriously decorated belts and with plates. In burials like the tomb 17, (idra pri baci) in Slovenia, there is a hull, a gladiolus, a clasp etc. But there are no evidences of plates for the strap, this is an example. Pardon again for my Englishman, I must seem Tarzan speaking.

[Tarbicus]

the beginners or the soldiers of short service in the army might not finance this way luxuriously decorated belts and with plates.

I'd buy that one

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

That tomb can't be used as a roman burial reference. roman soldiers usually don't be buried with the weapons. That burial quoted by Feugere and others, could be of a roman AUXILIARYMEN, so it's different of a roman legionary's one.

Gabriel: cuando uses el traductor automático, mira de elegir el pronombre adecuado. Ejemplo, it (he, she). Tambien, cuando está entre parentesis una palabra es porque hay varias posibilidades: elige una, please. Saludos de la tarraconense :wink:

[Tarbicus]

Okay, I'm returning the goods. :wink:

[marcii ulpi messala]

I know this of the auxiliary one, but it he would demonstrate that the obligatory thing in the equipment of the alone soldier serious the helmet, the gladio, the shield etc. But it he would include neither the belt of plates nor the pugio. Today we know that to differentiate the equipment of an auxiliary soldier of a regular soldier is very difficult, of there is the example of this tomb. Regards from Andalusia.

[Magnus]

I agree with newer troops having less money...but here's a question.

Would there not have been lesser decorated or lesser quality pugio for sale created not by the master smith/crafstmen, but by their apprentices? Or less decorative pugio created specifically for the lower end market. I can't see there being only one cost/quality level of pugio. If they were such a sought after object, why wouldn't a smith create some of lower quality or have his apprentices make some in order to generate more cash flow. The less work into a blade means more profit on the end, even if you're selling it for less, and even better if you can have one of your apprentices do it!

[Robert]

This reminds me a bit of my other hobby, paleontology. Fossil records are ofter fragmented and it is very difficult to reconstruct an ecosystem on basis of the finds. Often it was pure chance a specimen was fossilized, most just merrily rotted away or were eaten by scavengers. Drawing conclusions from the mere absence of things is VERY frowned upon in paleobiology.
I feel that a lot of what we believe is based on projection and speculation. It would make very good sense for every soldier to carry a handy utensil like a blade or a dagger BUT we can't prove it. The evidence does however point into a direction, namely that the pugio was a military item which was used over a long period of time and evolved. The lack of finds in the first century period is frustrating to me, as it leaves a large gap in the series, but does not give rise to the speculation the pugio dropped out of use, we just haven't found enough remains.
Same goes for fish! If a certain type of fish is not accounted for in a given period, but types of it are found before and after, it is logical to assume it has existed in the intermediate period, only it's exact appearance is still the question.

[Crispvs]

Just to address one or two points.

- I do not see any problem in the idea of pugiones being issue items. The fact that not all soldiers are depicted carrying them does not necessarily argue against this.

- The Herculaneum soldier was, in fact, found with a pugio of sorts. For some reason it is often stated that he was found without one. I am not sure why.

- The idea that pugiones and their sheaths were initially plain and were decorated as a soldier gradually came into money is not supported by the evidence. VERY few undecorated sheaths have been found and more than one decorated sheath has been hacked around in order to recycle it for a later sheath.

Crispvs

[Tarbicus]

For some reason it is often stated that he was found without one. I am not sure why.

I think it's simply because it's never even mentioned in the readily available literature. I tried to get my hands on a report on Herculaneum's skeletal remains last week, but was told it wasn't available even though it was listed :evil:

[aitor iriarte]

See this old topic link from old RAT

Aitor