tribune helmet from Thrace?

[Marcus Mummius]

Salve omnes,

I'd like your opinion on this helmet. It is said to be a legionary helmet from the 1st-3rd century found in Thrace. No further context is known :roll:

It looks a bit like a tribune/high officer helmet like we see depicted in Roman sculptural art (like Trajan's column).

Could this be a genuine example of this archaeologically almost unknown helmet type? Or is it a fake... :?

Here are the pictures:

[Marcus Mummius]

And some more pictures:








So what do you all think 8) ?

Valete,

[Ioannis]

The corrosion looks pretty real to me!

[Tarbicus]

hock: Nah. One of those Ebay ones. Ask them for a more in-depth provenance and who they got it from. This must be the third or fourth in as many weeks that I've seen - a lot of them isn't there.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Ioannis! I agree with your conclusion about the corrosion! It is definately real corrosion!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Regards

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

well........ if it is real it is a first to me......

i do like it however, it has the correct attic form....

but without a context it goes in the realm of......... dont buy it if you dont know it...

i would like to see a reconstruction though......

since it might as well have been an attachment opn a Roman work of art, a standard statue or the statues (piles of conquered weaponry) that existed..

I say this because the helmet is a full bronze CAST!! no iron or hammered bronze helmet would break up that way !!!

M.VIB.M.

[Tarbicus]

The forgers must be reading this and jumping with glee :roll:

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

as in forgery............ or forging/smithing........??

hahahaha

:lol:

M.VIB.M.

[Antonius Lucretius]

I know of several people who can turn a brand new copper alloy piece into this in no time with the help of know-how and a few chemical processes..
And no, it is not the proper attic shape. So far, all the attic style helmets I know of, including the later "proto-attic" or Guisborough type have the brow piece --the diadem like thingie-- integral with the helmet. Not slapped on like this one and all the other "Hollywood types" in circulation.
The diadem acted like the brow guard on the legionary helmets, as a reinforcement and a means to get this part of the head as far away as possible from the helm. A add-on diadem just could not function that way.

If you go on Toni Feldon's site:www.swordandstone.com/armour.html

On the "ancient armour page" you'll see two helmets. One is described as "City Gaurd"(sic) helmet. It is a copy of an original found in Pompei.
This is the the real attic form.

Then there is the "Hollywood" type a bit lower on the page, described as "praetorian guard" helmet. No archaelogical example of this one was found as far as I know.
Since absence of evidence is not... And so on, it may be possible that this type , with a add-on brow band actually existed but again, as far as I know, no archaeological evidence of it was found.

[Cornelius Quintus]

If you go on Toni Feldon's site:www.swordandstone.com/armour.html

Ave Pascal,

interesting site - and interesting prices... (gulp) :lol:

The rather poor 'Gallic' there, priced $ 1.500 is no match for the new Deepeeka Italic D.

Perhaps a Ralph Moeller photograph (wearing Toni Feldon's items) might increase the price - while the power of RAT increases quality

[Tarbicus]

On the "ancient armour page" you'll see two helmets. One is described as "City Gaurd"(sic) helmet. It is a copy of an original found in Pompei.
This is the the real attic form.

Robinson classified this as the Italic A, found at Herculaneum.

[Marcus Mummius]

On the "ancient armour page" you'll see two helmets. One is described as "City Gaurd"(sic) helmet. It is a copy of an original found in Pompei.
This is the the real attic form.

Robinson classified this as the Italic A, found at Herculaneum.

Do you know if anyone makes one? Preferably cheaper than Feldon...

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

And no, it is not the proper attic shape

i am talking about the bowl itself and the neck guard..




not the browband.



however i am convinced the helmet is fake.... as i said earlier...

M.VIB.M.

[Gaius Decius Aquilius]

Marcus,

I have a Valentine "Attic" which is an import. I got it as a "to-do" rework project. The shape and length of the neck guard and skull of your postings look suspiciously like the one I have. I found the length of the neck guard to be impractical to wear and in fact the "Attics" on T's C are of a shorter length in proportion. The shape of the brow piece is the same, but on the import is too long. Were I to modify the brow and change the cheek pieces of the one I have, it would look a lot like the one in your pictures.

In short, were I to make an exact copy of the one you posted, I could easily use mine to to it. The piece may be real for all I know, but as suggested, a bit of research would be in order. I have read in the last few days where there is a thriving bootleg industry on faked artifacts used to fund questionable political activities of a nature that enters into the realm of modern politics and therefor not suitable for RAT discussion.

There are too many "Attics" existing in monumental art of the period and appearing in curious circumstances, (such as Trajan addressing a group that all wear an "Attic"), to flat rule out the existence of the type as artistic convention. If for no other reason than some Roman with enough money and questionable sobriety could simply have one made just because they do appear on things like T's C. The one point that may not be apparent until you wear the one I bought is that the shape and length of the T's C Attics are what would be a practical result of actual use. The copy is uncomfortable and I would not like to fall off a horse wearing one. This may be an accidental element incorporated by the artist, or he may have taken it from an existing example. Maybe we will find one in a documented context and then have an excuse to have a real academic dog fight over the issue.

Gaius Decius Aquilius
(Ralph Izard)

EDIT: As Lucius Alfenus Avitianus correctly points out in the next post, the green patination is unstable. I have a bottle of the green stuff in my garage and applied with a torch could duplicate the effect on my Attic in about an hour. (don't want to steal Lucius's thunder, but I had to edit to correct a misspelling anyway...)

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

The colours you can see in the piece are:

Dark green: Copper carbonate (malaquita)

Light green: chloride copper.

Roman pieces usually shows too another oxid: cuprite, of a reddish colour.

The light green here are the principal colour. At roman pieces are very scarce, because if a roman piece had all the surface covered by chlorides, probably it had not come to us until our days. The reason is because chloride are unestable and very corrosive. At roman pieces appears in little spots, and restorers must immediately to neutralizate them.

Nevertheless, they are easy to produce with some substances (acids) so it's the most common colour you can see at fakes.

My veredict: FAKE.