Pics of my Japanese Armour in progress (for Marcus!)

[Magnus]

Hey everyone,

Here's a few pictures of the riveted Okegawa Do that I've been working on for waaaay too long and that I need to get my butt in gear and finish. I've actually did some more work to the back plate (in grey), but I still need to finish it off, paint it, add some brass edging (like a scutum edge, but a lot smaller), and make a set of kusazuri, or thigh protection. The first picture is what it will look like approximately when it's done (from Anthony J. Bryant's site).

I saw your pictures too Marcus, your collection is growing very nicely!!!



Finished antique Okegawa do, smooth finish.




Front shot of my semi-finished breast plate.




Side view...note the curvature from top to bottom as well as side to side. Puts a lot of torque on the plates and rivets....fun stuff!


So once this is done (this project I think is the most physically demanding in terms of labour), I'll probably work on the kote (armoured sleeves) or the Suneate (basically greaves). They're smaller, and even though there's a bit of chain maille involved, it's probably something I can park my butt in front of the TV and assemble, instead of being in the garage.

[Magnus]

And the under-construction back plate:



The just started (at the time) back plates...



The back plate has a distinct "M" shape which contours to the back.

[Praefectusclassis]

Nice work Matt!

[Magnus]

Thanks Jasper. It's 2:27 a.m. over here...are you up now? lol

[Praefectusclassis]

Well, 2.30 EST = 8.30 GMT + 1.

[Magnus]

Heheheh...I should go to bed earlier...damn RTW!

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

LOOKING VERY VERY GOOD MATT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

quite like the studding! very rare but used!

indeed the curvature of the plates is a bit typical in any dou i have come across...

http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/katchu.html

is my bible!!!!!!!!!!!!

It indeed is time consuming as is the different style in Mail......

but also with my collection i wanted to have the originals before even attempring a replica..



Still havent played RTW.... am a fan of STW ......... hehehehe... just waiting till RTW gets as cheap as it gets!

M.VIB.M.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

here are some pics of Japanese mail, courtesy of Anthony J Bryant

www.sengokudaimyo.com







M.VIB.M.

[Magnus]

Marcus, do you own those kote??? Those look awesome...plus they don't use a ton of chain maile...I may base mine on those when the time comes. (I'm trying to avoid making as much maille as I can.)

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

yesss i definetely own them! they came in last monday!!

here are some pics of the (complete) suit of armour.... I will have to relace some parts, restore the Do, rebuild the helmet and repaint the entire thing with either urushi (Japanese lacquer) or another compareable paint, and then it will be completely finished... might post some of the rebuilding pics on here too...







M.VIB.M.

you wont believe the tinyness of Japanese mail!

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

M.VIB.M.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

[Matt Lukes]

Hey, I have a question for you Japanese armor experts- all the 'lacing' on the outside seems particularly vulnerable to cutting; was that either not considered a threat or is there another explanation?

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Hey Matt, most of the times it was completely disregarded, and secondly, silk braid (the type the samurai used) was and still is very invulnerable to cutting, no matter how sharp the katana or tachi was.

also the fact the armor moved around quite a bit when in use and in battle may well have helped in deflecting and re-issuing the strength of any one blow.

If you compare modern day Kendo armour, and especially the hand-stitched layers upon layers upon layers of cloth still display some of the craftsmanship of the brigandine makers of the samurai past.

the weapon most feared by samurai was the so called kabuto wari, a big club which could break any kabuto and therefore skull, and the jitte, a small iron peg which, when used well could easily break a sword in two.

kabutowari



Jitte



anyway, in Japanese warfare, various other clubs, pikes, poles, and several other styles of weapons were used.

however, also swords were used for splitting helmets.

http://www.shinkendo.com/kabuto.html

also when the TEPPO (black-powder matchlock gun) and cannon became widely used on the battlefield the use of armor declined, however thicker, more european style armor was developed, some also with the dents of bullets fired on them by the smith, to prove they were gun-resistant... similar to European armour of the era.



A nice article comparing western and Japanese swords was written in 2001 by a Kendo teacher in the UK.

QUOTE:

Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 14:02:01 +0000
From: "G. S. Murray Threipland"
Subject: European vs Japanese blades.

Comparing cutting ability of Japanese and European blades does not really
tell very much. Swords develop as a result of the environment in which they
are used. Take Roman swords. They are ideal for the way the Romans used
them. A legionary usually worked in close proximity with others. A shield
and short stabbing sword is ideal for close combat in a phalanx. Another
factor is that the Roman military machine was cost conscious. They needed a
cheap, mass produced, legionary-proof sword. The more individualistic
Celtic and Saxon peoples took the individual warrior against warrior
approach, took up more space and so tend to have slashing swords, each
individual and individually crafted.

The Viking and Saxon swords (5th-9th centuries) were usually pattern welded,
which entailed the twisting together of different grades of steel and iron
to produce a sword that was in many instances every bit as sharp and strong
as Japanese swords. (Aside: Pattern welding survived up to modern times,
but in shotgun barrels, and quite a number of bladesmiths today still use
it, especially in the USA). Legends surround many of the smiths who made
these swords, and of course of the warriors who used them. Put Japanese
names in the Icelandic sagas, and you would be hard put to tell them apart
from the indigenous Japanese stories. Anyway, the Saxon smiths used cutting
tests that sometimes bear striking resemblance to Japanese stories of
testing. For example one smith tested a blade by standing it up in a river,
and letting a thread, carried by the current, impinge upon the blade,
cutting it in the process.

What is interesting is the protocol surrounding European swords was very
similar to what Iaido practitioners still honour today. Don't touch
another's sword without permission, don't draw the blade without good
reason, etc.

I have serious doubts that a katana would have survived very long in a
medieval European battle. European swords of the time were the way they
were because they had to deal with European armour, which was very
efficient. ( I am not talking about the jousting armour which was
incredibly heavy, but the 'field harness' used in battle and weighing about
50-60 lbs). With mail based armour, percussive weapons were favoured, such
as axes and maces What was needed was a heavy, smash through everything
type of weapon. The swords developed along these lines as well. Sharpness
was not really needed, You can't cut through armour, but you can cleave
through it, hence there is no need for a curve on the blade. Also the
straight blade with the crossguard represented the Cross, which was supposed
to remind a knight of his service to God.

When plate armour became the norm, armour was designed to deflect blows away
from the wearer. So more penetrative weapons became necessary. The war
hammer, poleaxe and such became popular. Swords slowly became more pointed,
so as to stab into the chinks and gaps in the armour. This led to the
Estoc, which was the ancestor of the rapier. The Estoc had a sophisticated
hand guard, because the user did not wear a gauntlet, because gauntlets
didn't allow for much sensitivity in the grip, which was needed for accuracy
of thrusts.

Another consideration was climate. When the Arabs pushed into Russia, they
found that the Damascus steel swords, which were sharp and flexible in the
desert, became as brittle as glass in cold weather. So they used to rob
Viking graves for the swords, which would work in a cold climate. (Arab
swords of this era were straight and double edged, as were the European
ones). The Vikings responded by bending the sword ritually on the death of
its owner. The religious logic was that the sword had to be 'killed' upon
the death of its owner. The practical logic was by making the destruction
public, everyone would know that it was pointless to rob graves for the
sword.

It is now coming to be realised that European fighting techniques were
actually very sophisticated. Unfortunately the practice was discontinued
when it wasn't needed any more, or was changed into something else. This
was what faced the Japanese at the end of the Edo period, and dedicated
sword masters took steps to preserve their various arts. Hence, here we all
are, practising a Japanese sword art. Would we be practising kendo/iaido if
the European sword arts had been preserved? (I am not talking about fencing,
which was derived from the Small Sword of the 17-18th Centuries)

I hope this gives a taste for some of the practical and cultural factors
that affect sword design. I think that the nihonto is the best cutting
sword ever developed, but the catch is that you must know how to use it
properly. It is very strong when used as a slicing cutter, and the Japanese
were obviously happy with that. However, if I am unfortunate enough to
find myself in a European melee, then give me a poleaxe any day.

Gavin.

G.S. Murray Threipland
Treasurer, British Kendo Association

UNQUOTE