Roman Musical instruments..

[Gaius Largenius]

Salve, my friends..
I was once, very briefly, a Cornicen. My then wife's rather untimely, if i might say so :lol: , decision to end our marriage also ended my budding career as a Roman Military musician. Having been a modern military musician, i am intensely fascinated by how they were used. Did they use the Cornu for battlefield or in-barrack signalling, as with the drum and later the bugle in the British Army, and did they have Army Bands? Used possibly in the same manner as Military Bands are now?
Anyone point me in the direction of some reference, or give me an opinion? I would also be interested to know where i might have a Cornu made.
As i understand it, there were other instruments used by the Roman Army. Anyone tell me which? I only know that they weren't thought to have used the drum. I am also given to understand that a Cornucen was an administrator of some kind, like a modern army clerk. Any information on this or how to find information on this would be greatly appreciated.

[Caratacus]

I can't tell you where you could get one made (I suspect that you will have to be passing rich to get it done, though) but I can perhaps give you some info on instruments.

The cornicen did, in fact, have other duties. He was the 'company clerk and banker'. It was his job to keep the records for the century of the soldiers' pay. He therefore has to be both literate and numerate - also honest (if not the latter, then very fleet of foot, I would imagine). I suspect that his instrument was used as a sort of "attention getter". Blowing the thing on the battlefield would mean that you were supposed to look towards the signum, where it was pointing told you where you were supposed to go!

Other musical instruments were the tuba (played by a tubicen, and the bucina (wielded by the bucinator), also the lituus These were also brass instruments, the former two were sort of trumpet/bugle instruments (no valves, of course) while the lituus looked like a trumpet that was turned up at the end.

What they sounded like is anyone's guess! Obviously, very brassy in tone but of limited range. I think that I am correct in saying that the Romans did not use musical notation, so I doubt that anyone can give you any tunes.

References are hard to come by, but there were some pieces found at Augusta Raurica and, I think, at Vindisch. See:

E. Deschler-Erb (1999), "Forschungen in Augst, Band 28", "Ad Arma", p.71-3
C. Unz & E. Deschler-Erb (1997), "Katalog der Militaria aus Vindonissa", GPV, Band XIV, p.60 & Taf.76

Muscial instruments (particularly the cornicen) are also displayed on Trajan's column.

Mike Thomas/Caratacus

[Susanna]

Please read the posts in the "Ancient Civ Talk" and "Music of ancient Greece and Rome", there is stuff about it.

Romans HAD musical notation and we know at least some stuff that was played.

For sure tuba, cornu and bucina were played - all litui found by today date (sorry to say) to the medieval age and the word first runs up in late antiquity.

The bucina was a simple natural horn, made from animal horns.

There are several founds of corni and three finds of tubae, so we can give a clear "soundreplic" towards rebuilding them.
There are a lot of serveral and different mouthpieces, mostly similar to mouthpieces of trumpets from Baroque ;-) )

As far as we know, the signum was just for the direction you had to follow in a battle, as Mike wrote, while the cornu gave you the speed or formation. But that is still to be discussed in detail.

[Tarbicus]

I have a Deepeeka cornu, and I can certainly get sounds out of it although I am musically challenged. Others say they have had success playing it, although it would be worth soldering the parts together. The same goes for their lituus.

[url:3u7snbji]http://www.armae.com/antiquite/11antiquitecadre.htm[/url]

[TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS]

Ok, Jim, now apply yourself to your cornu and learn to play Dizzy Gillespie's "A Night in Tunisia", then, post the mp3 for us!

Anyway never listened any good sound from the Deepeeka (and others)cornus, maybe it's only improvised musicians fault, or not?

BTW, I take the opportunity to ask Susanna if there are any news about evidences of the use of the utriculum in the army, as David Marshall suggested for the IX Hispana... Any News?

Valete,

[Susanna]

Hi Daniele,

well, by the way that I think that David Marshall was a really good and creative musician...the problem of the "utriculum", a word that means "bag" in Latein and seems to have been a musical instrument.

I know the picture of Great Britian a lot of people base this theory on and it originally dates into the 16th cent.
2nd found is a little figure of a "Roman soldier with a bagpipe", but that was already found out to be the head of a knife produced in a manufacture in Aachen, Germany towards the 16th cent.

See therefore:
Dr. F. Schneider, "Römischer Soldat und altslawisches Indol. Irrtümer um die Figur eines Sackpfeifers". In: Dr. W. Kage (Ed.), "Vom Sammeln, von Sammlern und Sammlungen". Festschrift für Ralf Wendt zum 65. Geburtstag. Schwerin (2001), 151 ff.

Because the same figure (a second one) was found in Germany and was taken to have been an old slawistic German with an antique bagpipe. :wink: :lol:

But we have some written sources about bagpipes or what we can take for...but sadly unless now all iconographic resources turned out to be not authentic!

[Caratacus]

I had heard that 'bagpipes' had been invented somewhere in Iberia and exported from there, possibly to Ireland and that from there they went to Scotland. It seems that the Scots still haven't seen the joke! :lol:

I didn't realise that the Romans used a form of musical notation. Presumably, it wasn't the same as our "modern" stave system? Is there any further information on this, somewhere accessible?

On the further subjects of muscial instruments, there are some mosaics (and some wall-paintings as well) that show a type of water-organ being played, particularly at gladiatorial games.

Dr. Mike Thomas
(Caratacus).

[Susanna]

The Roman notational system based on the same as were used by the ancient Greeks. (Check the thread in the Civ Talk). :wink:
Its based on ancient Greek alphabets.

We do not know were bagpipes come from, but basically is that they are a further invented form of the "aulos" or "tibia". Just to make the bicircular form of breathing easier with a bag under your arm. Also to stabilize the tone. But it seems that they both were used already since 5th cent. BC. ment by Aristophanes, in ancient Greek they were called "aeskaules".

We got a water pipe with real water...
Think we will play it in Xanten f.e. and record a CD with it.

[IMP GALLIENVS AVG]

Roman musical instruments always amaze me, as a saxophonist and Roman fanatic :lol: Those modern replicas look very cool, I would love to play one!


Andrew

[ambrosius]

Hi Daniele,

well, by the way that I think that David Marshall was a really good and creative musician...the problem of the "utriculum", a word that means "bag" in Latein and seems to have been a musical instrument.

But we have some written sources about bagpipes or what we can take for...but sadly unless now all iconographic resources turned out to be not authentic!

Hi Susanna,

Don't some coins from Nero's reign show him playing the bagpipes?
I heard that it was the bagpipes he played, not the fiddle. :lol:

Ambrosius/Mike

[Robert Vermaat]

Was Nero playing military bagpipes?
Are we discussing military instrument use or civilian?

[Susanna]

He never played a fiddle, that is a mistake of later translation.
He played the kithara as a stringed instrument.

He also played the aulos (tibia), water organ, he sung and played a "utriculum". There are no coins as far as I know. It comes from a written source! :wink:

As we cannot saperate some instruments from military use or civilian, f.e. tuba in the army, pompae and circus...its simply both. :wink:

[ambrosius]

He never played a fiddle, that is a mistake of later translation.He also played the aulos (tibia), water organ, he sung and played a "utriculum". There are no coins as far as I know. It comes from a written source! :wink:

I just found this website on the history of bagpipes. It's one of many
that make the claim of Neronian coins showing him playing 'bagpipes'
(or the 'Tibia Utricularis', as they call it) :wink: I think David Marshall
had the theory that the Scots got the bagpipes from Romans playing
them on Hadrian's Wall. 8)

http://www.bagpipes-henderson.com/historyBagpipes.html

As we cannot saperate some instruments from military use or civilian, f.e. tuba in the army, pompae and circus...its simply both. :wink:

Very true. 8)

Ambrosius/Mike

[Susanna]

The Roman bagpipes or "tibia utricularis" represented a major innovation, the addition of the reservoir. Historians have noted that Roman coins depict Nero playing the bagpipe, not the fiddle.

In texts they talk of Nero and the "utriculum", the "tibia utricularis" does not appear as a word in this way. So...also this roman coins discussion with Nero playing a bagpipe. One started to mention it in the 19th cent. and the next one wrote it from him and than the next one..so on...not checking the original source again...sad bad true ;-) :?

The resource you linked is very good, but in antiquity the discussion of bagpipes had not reached its end.



"Symphonia" means "Bagpipe" in medieval age, in antiquity it meands a tune (song) to be played in quart, quint and/or octave. As an instrument in can also have been an aulos which is proved archaeologically for that time.

Biblical mention is made of the bagpipe in Genesis and in the third Chapter of Daniel where the "symphonia" in Nebuchadnezzar's band is believed to have been a bagpipe.

The "Oxford History of Music" makes mention of the first documented bagpipe being found on a Hittite slab at Eyuk. This sculptured bagpipe has been dated to 1,000 B.C.

Also that source appears in lexica etc. but noone seems to know this sculpture in original. :wink:

If someone can prove me that coins (sometimes also gems and rings are mentioned) as to be antique and authentic or show me that statue in origin, I will travel worldwide everywhere and give a concert for free. shock: :wink:

One thing you can see it is that the bordun pipe is first invented in the 13th cent. The first provable painting and sculpters date to the 9th cent. AD.

Add on:
This is an articel my husband Ralf Gehler wrote about bagpipes and their history:
http://www.mdr.de/kultur/musik_buehne/3 ... 25224.html
(only German, sorry).

[pvblivs cordvs]

Hello Adrian and others,
being a cornicen on occasion I own my own cornu (1mtr 66 tall / 3 mtr 56 from the mouthpiece to the bell). It was made for me by Toni Feldon
( http://www.hetmanmilitaria.com ) and it is an actual working instrument instead of just a noise-maker.

According to good old Vegetius in his Book III: Field Strategy and tactics, there are three sorts of commands voiced semi-voiced and mute.
Voiced being pronounced by the human voice regardless of being the watchword or the C.O.'s orders. Semi-voiced are those given by tuba, cornu or bucina i.e. the horn-blowers. And the mute signals are given by the standards of which he mentions a whole assortment.

In Book II he further mentions the differences between the various calls made by cornu, tuba and bucina.
When the cornu sounds, according to V. its not the soldiers as such which obey their signal but the standards. "When the standards are to be moved the cornu sounds."
"When the soldiers alone go out to do some work, the tuba sounds.
But when there is to be a battle, both cornu and tuba sound together."
There is also a reference to a thing called Classicum played by the cornu
which is played when the emperor is present or "when capital punishment is being inflicted on a soldier, since this must be done according to the emperor's laws"
So its tuba for the soldiers, cornu for the standards.

As to army bands, well, I've found it makes a huge difference when music is played during a gladiator fight.
(To find out the effect for yourself just put in a DVD or Video with a battle scene of Star wars of James Bond and switch off the sound.)
So I more or less expect that the military buglers are called for when there is a fight at the local arena. We know there were musicians present at these affairs.
Whether they were actual bands is anybody's guess.

Cheers,
Wim / Cordvs