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flying 262s again...
#31
Oh I know about the reasons Heiko- but I still think it's unfortunately excessive when it comes to certain things like aircraft markings. You're not going to have groups of idiots rallying around and saluting the tail of an airplane :lol: I can understand issues with flying flags or wearing t-shirts with the Hakenkreuz on them, but for historical things there should be an exception- especially ancient things!
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#32
Quote:Oh these beautiful world war two planes!!

Did anyone else like me spent their childhood building Airfix`s, Revell`s, Matchbox`s aeroplanes?

I certainly did Big Grin 32 scale, so I could get the maximum detail on and see everything- I still have my Hartmann's Karaya 1 Bf109G, and my JG7 Me262A-1a. I have more 1:35 scale tanks though- Panther, Tiger, Jagdtiger... ah, the memories :wink:

One thing that would make that reproduction 262 better would be replica MK108s :twisted: I'd LOVE to see one actually shooting down a target drone or something...
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#33
Quote:Did anyone else like me spent their childhood building Airfix`s, Revell`s, Matchbox`s aeroplanes?
[..]
I had all the Airfix toy soldiers too (and battlestations, bridges, tanks etc.) and also a roman trireme! Perhaps part of the fascination of this hobby was the "trips" due to sniffing the Airfix glue too much :wink: ...
Oh yes I did.. Never tripped from paint though! Big Grin
Still have all those armies, tanks, more stuff, all unpainted though. I wanted to re-create some big battles so I had dozens of 'divisions' of each army. Airfix was never my favorite though.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#34
quote="Virilis"]
Quote:Plastic modelers usually cover the swastikas with paper or a dot-shaped sticker at an public exhibition

Heiko, I honestly am surprized by this political correctness! I think that this might even work in a very opposite way, making it somehow a "forbidden fruit" and even more fascinating to some people...[/quote]

Ave Jyrki and Aitor,

right, but most members of that New Nazi groups won't think so far. Most are like Hooligans. Muscles, no brain, no education, no job but a lot of beer - and someone who say they are chosen supermen by their 'race'. They parade and bash people - like their 'original' predecessors...

Quote:Yes, we know, Heiko but swastikas existed well before Adolf the Last and his mariachi.... :evil:
Should we refrain of reconstructing correctly the Late tunics at the Dura fresco or the Piazza Armerina mosaic because a hord of dangerous clowns are still at large :?

Also right! But the 'new' meaning of that symbol in Germany overshades all. I've read that in WW I, there even was a Jewish pilot whose plane showed a swastika...

Another point: The 'world' is still watching Germany with a special understanding of correctness. Nazis as villains are very common in Hollywood movies... Instead of regarding the fact, that Germany changed, much international TV channels, newspapers and organizations are featuring any incident, just to prove the ugly German is still alive.

So if the Me 262 would be rolled out in full markings in the US or other contries, only aviation freaks would notice that. If the same show happens in Germany it might be number one in the news worldwide...

But also, the danger of those New Nazis isn't 'harmless'. Ten years ago, I lived in the city of Lübeck. There such criminals set fire to house and many members of the Turkish families living there died...

Germany still is far away from 'normality' regarding swastikas, no matter of the ancient, medieval or international use of the symbol (like Finland's Airforce in WW II ?)
Greetings from germania incognita

Heiko (Cornelius Quintus)

Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
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#35
Quote:And this would be MY baby:

Fastest motor-driven plane ever. Smile

Ave Christian,

with ant-eater / Ameisenbär markings?
Greetings from germania incognita

Heiko (Cornelius Quintus)

Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
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#36
Quote: but for historical things there should be an exception- especially ancient things!

Ave Matt,

they do. But German authorities are very cautious and often not very well informed. Tell them about a dagger with a swastika and they are thinking of... Cry
Greetings from germania incognita

Heiko (Cornelius Quintus)

Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
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#37
Quote:
Virilis:cgh6zbwh Wrote:Plastic modelers usually cover the swastikas with paper or a dot-shaped sticker at an public exhibition
Heiko, I honestly am surprized by this political correctness!
It can't still be shown of Roman shields or clothing either, not because of neo-nazis but because there'll be one spectator at every venue who'll create a row over it!

Quote:
aitor iriarte:cgh6zbwh Wrote:Yes, we know, Heiko but swastikas existed well before Adolf the Last and his mariachi.... :evil:
Should we refrain of reconstructing correctly the Late tunics at the Dura fresco or the Piazza Armerina mosaic because a hord of dangerous clowns are still at large :?
Also right! But the 'new' meaning of that symbol in Germany overshades all. I've read that in WW I, there even was a Jewish pilot whose plane showed a swastika...
A swatika in WW1???? That's a bit before it's time, right? The Germans did not use the symbol before the nazis.[/quote]
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#38
Quote:Ave Jyrki and Aitor,

right, but most members of that New Nazi groups won't think so far. Most are like Hooligans. Muscles, no brain, no education, no job but a lot of beer - and someone who say they are chosen supermen by their 'race'. They parade and bash people - like their 'original' predecessors...
Wouldnt it make than more sense to forbidden beer? (I would be enthusiastic of that chance Big Grin )


But to get it serious:
We, who all know about the history of that sign dosnt have the identification with the cruelty of the 3rd Reich. But around the whole world many guys think somewhat different, in a way we cant allow. So the laws make sense.

But i also dont understand why not try to introduce the audience to the history of the swastika in the right place and time.
But that leads long away from the topic.

Does anyone of you miss the "classical" Me109? I do Big Grin
As i remember, there are several still flying.
real Name Tobias Gabrys

Flavii <a class="postlink" href="http://www.flavii.de">www.flavii.de
& Hetairoi <a class="postlink" href="http://www.hetairoi.de">www.hetairoi.de
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#39
Wearing a swastika will give the general public you're a neo-Nazi. You could explain all you like, but the people seeing the photos later will simply think you're a neo-Nazi at heart. Hitler hijacked it, and our historical sensibilities mean zero to most people in the world at large.

Germany's an especially special case, and if the law says you can't show a swastika then that's how it is. Are Americans allowed to burn the Stars and Stripes to re-enact history? I dare say that in Germany the feelings evoked by raising the swastika would be rather similar to dousing the Stars and Stripes with petrol in a town square in Ohio and throwing a match on it.

The most important thing to note here is that it's the non-Germans saying it doesn't matter, but the Germans here are the ones that it has more impact on but are being argued with. :? roll:
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#40
Well, just read that: New Photos Link Elite German Soldiers to Nazi Emblem [url:29w2qp9l]http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,2223277,00.html[/url]
Ioannis Georganas, PhD
Secretary and Newsletter Editor
The Society of Ancient Military Historians
http://www.ancientmilitaryhistorians.org/


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#41
So what's your point?
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#42
My point is that this symbol is still used by a group of people within a state military mechanism even today. Personally this freaks me out! Am I the only one feeling that way?
Ioannis Georganas, PhD
Secretary and Newsletter Editor
The Society of Ancient Military Historians
http://www.ancientmilitaryhistorians.org/


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#43
Quote:A swatika in WW1???? That's a bit before it's time, right? The Germans did not use the symbol before the nazis.

It was a very popular good-luck charm in the late-19th early 20th centuries, particularly amongst aviators (the first American aviatrix, Harriet Quimby, wore one as an amulet around her neck... didn't save her from falling out of her aircraft over Boston Harbour, though...) and a number of German pilots flew with it on their aircraft (Werner Voß being perhaps the best-known on his Albatros III) and only came to bear a more sinister meaning with its adoption by the Nazis. And yes, there were high-scoring Jewish pilots in the Luftstreitkräfte, Frankl springs to mind, but they were 'airbrushed' out of later history books for fairly obvious (and to our minds reprehensible) reasons (although one high-scoring non-Jewish pilot, Jacobs, went on to be a vociferous opponent of the Nazis' anti-Jewish policies).

Mike Bishop
You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of trifles

Blogging, tweeting, and mapping Hadrian\'s Wall... because it\'s there
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#44
Nah!...My Baby 1977
  
Remarks by Philip on the Athenian Leaders:
Philip said that the Athenians were like the bust of Hermes: all mouth and dick. 
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#45
One finds the swastika still being used in Japan, particularly on their maps, to denote the location of Buddhist temples.

There were also some samurai clans that used it on their banners (sashimono) in battle.

However, it has been tainted and will probably never be "rehabilitated" in our life times if ever. Even Dragon of Hong Kong, which specializes in 12" WWII action figures, goes to great lengths to cover up swastikas and SS runes as well as adding a disclaimer on the box itself.

As for the German unit using a variation of the Afrika Korps vehicle emblem...it does give one pause to wonder. (And thanks for the link Ioannis Smile )

Based upon the report, I have my doubts that the soldiers were using the symbol to espouse Nazi ideology.

Look at the arguments in the United States the continue to swirl around the use and display of the Confederate Battle Standard (The Stars and Bars). Many argue that it is a symbol of Southern pride, or is flown in honor of the brave soldiers who fought in a noble cause, etc. etc. etc. Others would equate it to the swastika.

There are no doubt some people who are still angry at the Romans for the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 CE, and who might find this site and our interest in the Roman military to be of questionable taste. (Admittedly I might be stretching the point here just a bit. :oops: )

History is a strange thing sometimes. :?

Narukami
David Reinke
Burbank CA
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