SCUTUM, building and testing, some thoughts

[Gallus Marinus Micarius]

Well, as someone who has thrown pila and marched with these scuta...I can honestly say that it is more FUN and more intellectually SATISFYING to know you are using something made with period materials and techniques as opposed to something that simply "looks" period. The feel is entirely different. I think we (as a group) are taking a GIANT leap forward in the reenactment world by encorporating theses...instead of questioning each and every aspect of what sean is doing (matt) some simple kudos/laudes would be nice.

[Matt Lukes]

I'm not questioning what Sean or your group is doing Peter- making proper strip plywood scuta is a good idea- I'm only questioning the specific statements that are made without proper evidence. Am I not supposed to call someone on statements I see as flawed and disagree with? The whole point of the forum is discussion- I'd sure expect people to point out flaws in claims I make if they see them...

And as I said, I made my first one of these more than a year ago and have recommended them ever since, so I'm well aware of the details of construction, and how they feel vs. a modern plywood shield- I certainly agree they're far superior.

[mcbishop]

Well, I've read that coppiced ash groves were commonly maintained and harvested for spear and javelin shafts, but like so much else in my brain I can't quote a source for that!

Mea culpa! B&C2 p.246.

The fact is you can't make properly functional spearshafts any other way than by coppicing. Lots of work has been done on prehistoric woodmanship in Britain, particularly on the tons of Bronze Age stuff from the Somerset Levels, where it is clear that they knew as much then as we do now about selection by type and form. The structure of a coppiced pole is so different from a dowel produced by machining a piece of lumber, because it employs both the xylem (inner) and phloem (outer) components of the wood and has all the structural benefits of being a tree in miniature. Thus there is no way that the Romans were not going to use coppicing to make spear shafts. There are certain 'givens' in woodmanship that are going to hold true throughout time, just as most Roman tools look like the modern ones.

So no it isn't specifically written anywhere that this was done, but 'as sure as eggs is eggs', it was! Incidentally, in England (as distinct from the UK in general) the specific characteristics of oak were used selectively in the Napoleonic period to encourage growth of oak 'standards' (single trees) in hedgerows precisely because they formed the elbows that were needed in ships because the trees adopt a different aspect when not in woodland. Similarly, the wood specialist who looked at the material from Carlisle told me that, whilst the earliest Cerealian fort was constructed from clearance timber (including alder), the later stuff showed clear selectivity and the practice of draw felling.

The sort of things Sean is talking about are exactly where the archaeologist learns from the craftsman. I am forever asking David Sim stuff about his tradecraft as a blacksmith and, in return, I can give him information about finds etc that might be of use.

Whilst my skills in woodsmanship are limited to wielding an axe (I know, I should be using a maul) to split logs, I had the good fortune to marry a palaeobotanist who currently administers a scheme to coppice hazel to make charcoal for a working 18th-century country-house kitchen.

Mike Bishop

[Tarbicus]

Some sources of coppiced wood in England.
[url:3qskzkd7]http://www.highweald.org/sites_listing.asp?PageId=44&c=56&k=&x=27&y=11[/url]
[url:3qskzkd7]http://www.highweald.org/sites_listing.asp?PageId=44&c=56&t=%25&k=coppice&x=0&y=0[/url]

And here's an online link to it being mentioned for our use?
[url:3qskzkd7]http://museums.ncl.ac.uk/archive/arma/welc/beginner/page08.htm[/url]

[Matt Lukes]

The fact is you can't make properly functional spearshafts any other way than by coppicing.

Certainly it makes sense that the strongest spear shafts would be from these basically little trees, and an examination of the cross section of artifact hafts should support the idea that coppicing was used by the Romans for their production- but that doesn't support the idea that it was done for scutum wood, right? I don't know just how you'd prove this, which is why I asked about a source for support...

[Magnus]

Well, as someone who has thrown pila and marched with these scuta...I can honestly say that it is more FUN and more intellectually SATISFYING to know you are using something made with period materials and techniques as opposed to something that simply "looks" period. The feel is entirely different. I think we (as a group) are taking a GIANT leap forward in the reenactment world by encorporating theses...instead of questioning each and every aspect of what sean is doing (matt) some simple kudos/laudes would be nice.

Well, power to ya. Me, I wouldn't bother, since I think it's more FUN and both physically and intellecutally SATISFYING to use something that looks just as good, and takes about half the amount of effort into making. I mean, if you have nothing else to do with your time, go for it!

I really don't see the GIANT leap forward here...once it's painted and covered in leather or fabric do you really notice it? Is the average joe public spectator going to say "Holy bananas, those guys have laminated scuta!" Or would they not be able to tell the difference? I think this is a pride thing, which is great, but really, you're not doing anything that is visually outstanding in any regard beyond your own unit, unless you want to keep your scuta unpainted and uncovered with linen or leather.

And why would Matt give a laudes point for something he already did a year ago? It's a discussion forum...and when you do something "new", expect to have it questioned. If you can't handle that (which i'm sure Hib can ) then I don't know what to tell you.

[M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER]

Is the average joe public spectator going to say "Holy bananas, those guys have laminated scuta!" Or would they not be able to tell the difference?

A curious average Joe might ask you how Roman scuta were made, and then you will have to say something like, 'Well, what you actually see here is not what it is supposed to be, because...' etc. Having said that, I am having my scutum made the pre-Hibernicus way since his are prohibitively expensive. :wink:

[Robert Vermaat]

Me, I wouldn't bother, since I think it's more FUN and both physically and intellecutally SATISFYING to use something that looks just as good, and takes about half the amount of effort into making. I mean, if you have nothing else to do with your time, go for it!

Sure, but to at least have done it once would also be a good thing. I mean, I've done about 4 flat shields now (8 when I count the 4 new onesa for the kids), and I bought one dished. But now I also would like to at least try to make a dished one myself, so that I can say I did it! Also, I am such a doofus that I always own up to those who ask that the others are from plywood... :oops:

I really don't see the GIANT leap forward here...once it's painted and covered in leather or fabric do you really notice it? Is the average joe public spectator going to say "Holy bananas, those guys have laminated scuta!" Or would they not be able to tell the difference? I think this is a pride thing, which is great, but really, you're not doing anything that is visually outstanding in any regard beyond your own unit, unless you want to keep your scuta unpainted and uncovered with linen or leather.

You are right - a pride thing, and I think (since so very few of us do it) it's a thing to be really proud of!

And why would Matt give a laudes point for something he already did a year ago? It's a discussion forum...and when you do something "new", expect to have it questioned. If you can't handle that (which i'm sure Hib can ) then I don't know what to tell you.

I'm sure that Hib can take it, and you are so right - on a discussion forum everything can and will be discussed (within the rules, of course), but i also think this rightly deserves a laudes just for the effort!

[Hibernicus]

... I am having my scutum made the pre-Hibernicus way...

Prehibernican scutums? :!:

but really, you're not doing anything that is visually outstanding in any regard beyond your own unit, unless you want to keep your scuta unpainted and uncovered with linen or leather.

That's why we have a sample scutum piece we tote to events.. to show folk how we did it, then point out what to look for so they can see the differences between a modern plywood scutum and one made from strips.

And its not just the internal construction, but the paint as well. The Roman paint looks different

[Neuraleanus]

Can someone give a definition of coppiced wood?

[Hibernicus]

try this...

http://www.craft-shows.co.uk/demonstrat ... _Woodsman/

[adamparsons]

Coppicing is when the tree is cut near the base after and year or two (depending on various factors) encouraging the tree to grow as several smaller trunks (usually fairly straight), a similar process called pollarding is done in areas where livestock are kept, the difference being the tree is allowed to grow to 6ft ish before it is "coppiced" thus keeping the new shoot out of the way of cow/sheep/deer etc.

Some trees coppice naturally anyway (e.g Hazel) Coppiced trees can bee steamed very straight (done in the bronze age), I have had a go myself.

However all the bits in roman spear sockets I have seen from illustrating objects (several from the roman site Mike was talking about) have been split from portions of radial planks (usually ash), which is still strong but much easier to split and straighter, this is true of spearshafts from the 9-11th century I have seen and some of the 18-19th century tools at a farming museum where I do some work, even some of the tools they have which came from an old coppicing site!

cheers all,
and laudes to Hib, I too do this for personal interest and not the public, and so enjoy experimenting with techniques, I enjoy spending the time and effort doing this! Each to their own I suppose we have recently built a forge and bellows and are now making some nice knives, caltrops and ballista points, next years were enlarging the hearth and going into spearheads and pilum shafts! Sure I could buy them, but I like getting burnt and smelling like smoke for a week!

[Matt Lukes]

... I am having my scutum made the pre-Hibernicus way...

Prehibernican scutums? :!:

You're famous Sean :wink:

[M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER]

Sean would probably say that since his way is more original, the plywood scuta cannot be pre-Hibernicus...But since he is promoting a new way of making them, which is actually the old way...well, I am confused :?

[Hibernicus]

Some have said that [size=150:12wbd1ig]I[/size] predate the scutum... but, that's a whole other thread.