willow trainings shields

[jvrjenivs]

I know we've talkt about this earlyer, but couldn't find the topic. Is there someone who made this? I like to make one in the near future, so I need experiences from other if theye are availiable.

[Mithras]

Since Vegetius talks of wicker shields as used in his own day (late 4th century) I'd like to see oval willow shields. I have no idea how to start making one of those. Our local willow worker is keen to try, but lacks a pattern or even a sculptured figure to look at.

[Salvianus]

Now, then, I was wondering the same thing - wouldn't it be excellent to have a pair for our training displays!

I had imagined one would start with a similar 'spider' as a basket base and just keep going/use bigger radiating withies or whatever from the start.

I haven't seen any real models. I seem to recall a Peter Connolly picture of what looked like a scutum shaped bit of garden fencing. I have a few illustrations in old WGRP publications, mostly similar pseudo-fencing, but one C4th-3rd BC Oscan had a strongly ribbed profile which might be described as a very broad cone with concave 'sides' rising to a low apex.

Duncan Heath describes this as "common in Lucanian art, apparently of wicker, rising to a point: Couissin compares it to a Chinese hat...I suspect it is oval and is the scutum of osiers covered with hide which Servius ascribes to the Lucani." He reckons it has the horizontal handgrip of the scutum.

It looks like a very strong structure, but is, of course, way too early for our period. Good design will out, of course.

[QFirmus]

I wish I cuold tell you where I read it, but I think there is something to the shield not being wicker in the modern since of willow and withies but osier, which may be a specific species or type...it's vague, but the point I remeber is that they were talking about something a little stockier and a little heavier than the dry willow that many light weight baskets are made of.

This material might add the strength to to keep this thing from crushing and add some wieght to make it easier to closer to having a shield that was twice the weight of the regular ones.

Is there anyone with a Latin version of Vegetius on hand who could address that?

Wish I had the source on hand, but just wanted to put that out there to help in your reconstruction efforts. I have seen the reconstruction in pictures from the ESG, but don't know what they used, but get idea it is sturdy stuff as they were actually using them to drill and practice.

[marsvigilia]

Most wicker is very brittle and I can not imagine that it would stand up to the abuse of combat practice. However I recently found some baskets that were woven from grape vine. These continued to be reletively pliable. It might make sence that the Romans could have used grape vine in this way.

[Robert]

Here's a thought: I have experimented with different materials and hazelshoots (1 or 2 years) also are good for flat and concave surfaces. It's the kind of garden fence, but with much denser weave. If soaked in water, they are as easy to use as willow, but seem more resilliant. They bend well to make a tight weave. You start the thick bit alternating left to right, giving a tight fit for the weave. It helps to place the stays in a board of holes, this allows you to hamer tight the weave as you place each branch. The sides can be lashed, when you get the prescribed lenght of shield, fold the stays down on the weave and lash them, too. This gives a strong, rectangular shield. The grip can be lashed on after the shield is finished. You could even add a shieldboss if the hole is cut carefully and lashed. Sorry, no pictures!
Larix and yew could also be used, I believe, no experience, though. You have given me thought to try a larix experiment sometime
Problem with grape is that to get the moderate thickness for the shield, one has to wait a few years and they are not straight.

[marsvigilia]

Hmmm. I had not thought about the straightness issue. That would certainly argue against it. I have no idea about the other woods you mentioned. What we need is a materials science engineer with expertise in plants.

[Robert]

Or perhaps just get a good hazelnut bush with plenty of shoots and start weaving and bashing away. This seems out of the realm of material science and smack into experimental archeology

[Martin Wallgren]

Have someone tried to build wickershields and have any pictures to show how they did it?

[Peroni]

I'd like to see oval willow shields. I have no idea how to start making one of those. Our local willow worker is keen to try, but lacks a pattern or even a sculptured figure to look at.

the CRS have wicker training clipeus made by a local chap to Colchester.

I'll see what I can find out. I think that he's due to be at an event in June with us, so hopefully I'll get to meet him too.

[jvrjenivs]

I found some more about it. The german Legio XV Primigenia has some of them.

As I'm understanding their website right, they're made by this man:
[url:31afgnjq]http://www.weiden-korb.de/[/url]