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Lead weight... wood .. who knows!
#16
Quote:Any reason to believe that the pila needed the extra punch? Anyone done a little chart as to the region and date of known pila with this "lead weight"? The era and region may give us some insight as to who the romans were fighting at the time, so we can see if there is any corelation between the armour worn by the enemy soldiers and the need for more puncture power in the javelins.

agree. maybe anyone can help with images? only images of soldiers with lead I remember seeing so far are Praetorians...I'm sure someone can give us some more info.
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[Micha F.]
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#17
I suspect the pumbata had the lead weight not just to provide punch but to give it a downward facing orientation as it fell. Could the same applied to the weighted pila?
>|P. Dominus Antonius|<
Leg XX VV
Tony Dah m

Oderint dum metuant - Cicero
Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
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#18
Quote:I suspect the pumbata had the lead weight not just to provide punch but to give it a downward facing orientation as it fell. Could the same applied to the weighted pila?

I have never had a problem with a pila needing extra weight to point downwards if thrown properly.
"...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."


a.k.a. Paul M.
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#19
Quote:agree. maybe anyone can help with images? only images of soldiers with lead I remember seeing so far are Praetorians...I'm sure someone can give us some more info.

Other than the Chancellaria relief, they're depicted on a handful of tombstones- the figures in the relief are usually, if I'm not mistaken, as praetorian guards, and it turned-out that the tombstones on which I found them shown were also praetorians so I wondered if it might not be a symbol of theirs or something- but then there are at least two non-praetorian tombstones that have them as well, so that theory's kind of dead :wink: So we're back to not really knowing just what the ball is...
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#20
I thought the weight was added to give extra punch against the Parthians,and Sassainian catephracts, who were heavily armoured?

There are pics of the Adamklissi metopes in Adrian Goldworthy's "The Complete Roman Army, page 131, showing legionaries with ball shaped objects below the block on pilums!

Tell me if its ok to quote authors and their books without their permission?
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
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Byron Angel
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#21
Oh you can quote anyone you like so long as you reference it- it's only posting copyrighted images from books without express permission that can be a problem.

There's no proof it's a weight at all or why it was there- it's all speculation and theory. Reasonable? Sure. Definitive? Nope. No artifact has ever been found and I'm not aware of any literary description either...
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#22
A lot of churchs with lead roofs though! Confusedhock: :lol: :lol:

The idea that you could have used the ball to assist in throwing crossed my mind as well! Nice to know someone has put it to practice! Still toying with the idea of swordsmiths weighted pilum!

I suppose we will never know then, as the literary evidence no longer exists to describe these things? would seem a logical theory though. Smile
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#23
Hibernicus

Interesting idea on using the ball to aid in chucking.

I've been recently experimenting with holding the triangular block and throwing with my fingers wrapped around the back end - similarly as you're suggesting with the ball. I think it's a very clever idea.

...darn I need to get some pictures/video? up with the technique.
Andy Volpe
"Build a time machine, it would make this [hobby] a lot easier."
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Legion III Cyrenaica ~ New England U.S.
Higgins Armory Museum 1931-2013 (worked there 2001-2013)
(Collection moved to Worcester Art Museum)
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#24
The idea of a lead weight and possible depictions is intriguing.

Our experiments have shown the added weight improves pilum penetration.

Our experiments have shown that throwing a weighted pilum while cupping the weight works very well.

I like it, but, like so many things we do its.. arguable.. but then that's part of what makes doing history fun!
Hibernicus

LEGIO IX HISPANA, USA

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#25
If a clay weight were meant to be single-use, it wouldn't need to be fired. It could be just a lump of mud packed around the shaft when the legion gears up for battle, with a little drying time so it doesn't slip off during the throw. If it were sun-dried well in advance, and protected from rain somehow, it could be left in place until use, but that would necessitate lugging around extra weight that could wait until later.

That sort of thing would be consistent with both art that depicts ball-weights and the absence of any archaeological evidence of the weights theselves. If they were fired ceramic or any sort of metal, they would likely be found with pilum heads. If they were ceramic, shards would be found on just about any battlefield where they were used, even if they usually didn't shatter.
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#26
A clay weight of a ball around 3" diameter, with a hollow for the spear shaft would add very minimal weight to the overall construction, though, compared to lead or hardwood of the same size.

The added weight, while shortening the range of the throw, would surely add to the force of impact. A 5 lb spear hits with more force than a 3 lb spear. And all the momentum is focused on a tiny point which might be 1/4mm square. Ow.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#27
After five years this topic seems dead.
None has any further idea or knows about new discoveries?

Can be those "optio balls" (http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat.html?fu...&id=162521) found (recently?) be instead one af the balls of the so called wheighted pilums?
Luca Bonacina
Provincia Cisalpina - Mediolanum
www.cisalpina.net
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