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Lead weight... wood .. who knows!
#1
BTW, these food for thought and what if topics have been fun, even useful....... Cool!

So, some, experts and historians and archaeologist and hobbyists have speculated that the ball at the base of the pyramidal wood shaft head might be a lead weight.. some of us have had a chance to toss some of these reproductions about... I'm even making some more.. varying some variables... and will post results later

But, here's another one to think about and comment on.

Most of us who've chucked a pila or two tend to hold it somewhat like a modern Olympic javelin and heave away. Some use a finger loop. Others grip the shaft at varying locations for a variety of reasons... balance point, better loft arc, "I've always done it this way".. etc etc..

Has anyone else held the lead weight like a ball and thrown from that position? Some of us have and find that the pilum can be easier to toss.. like throwing a ball! Tends to fly straighter with less effort than throwing from the shaft.

So maybe, if the ball was wood and not lead and you tossed the pilum that way...??

I see another project on the near horizon!
Hibernicus

LEGIO IX HISPANA, USA

You cannot dig ditches in a toga!

[url:194jujcw]http://www.legio-ix-hispana.org[/url]
A nationwide club with chapters across N America
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#2
Hey, now that's a clever idea- throwing a javelin by the shaft is indeed not a terribly natural action, but throwing a ball is a whole lot moreso. Certainly the leather amentum (the finger loop) is a rather simpler way to improve a throw, but even if the balls depicted in sculpture aren't intended as an improved way to throw, certainly soldiers would have figured this out at some point.
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#3
Was the amentum the standard in pilum throwing..? Or did the light infantry use them instead?
Johnny
Johnny Shumate
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#4
I don't know of any direct evidence of them having been used on pila myself
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#5
So what about the 2nd-3rd century reliefs showing the pilum shaft with *2* balls on it? Is it easier to throw 2 balls at once? Hmmm....

I think it's a weight. I'm not certain it's lead, mind you, but I do think it was smaller than most reproductions.

Valete,

Matthew
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
Legio XX, USA
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.larp.com/legioxx/">http://www.larp.com/legioxx/
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#6
Wonder if they were clay?
"...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."


a.k.a. Paul M.
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#7
I think ceramic would probably be too fragile- a good impact with anything and you'd need a new one...

As for the couple of tombstones that seem to show two, well two weights doesn't make a ton of sense either :lol: Besides, the one I've seen is VERY stylized- the man looks like a cherub, the upper 'ball' is smaller than the lower one and there may or may not be a section of pyrimidal block above it, so for all any of us knows that 'ball' IS the block and the sculptor just made that detail weird like several others... Of course that doesn't speak to the nature of the balls, but then that's unsupported theory itself.
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#8
Clay wouild be too fragile, but since pila were meant to be a use once, and repair item. Would it not be logical that the clay could be replaced when the point was straightend? If they even bent when thrown.
"...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."


a.k.a. Paul M.
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#9
But consider what's necessary to make a ceramic ball- heavy clay, drying time, LOTS of fuel to run the kiln... just doesn't seem practical to me as the legion would have to carry TONS of clay, kept wet, then have a constantly running kiln firing replacement balls... single use ceramics just don't seem logical
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#10
Who is to say they would be reused? Also why would it not be possible to have spare clay balls?

I just dont buy the idea that they were lead because of the amount of weight that would add. With that amount of weight you are affecting your range drastically.

I also dont believe they would break everytime they were thrown. I have seen many catapult, and sling bullets made from ceramic.
"...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."


a.k.a. Paul M.
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#11
But the balls have a central hole Paul, and are a lot larger than sling bullets, which are small and solid.

And why would lead be so hard to believe? There's no specific size for the balls so the weight is whatever you want it to be- just use less metal.
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#12
You guys and your balls...

lol
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Magnus/Matt
Du Courage Viens La Verité

Legion: TBD
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#13
Well first off there is no archeological evidence for them as far as I know. We have plenty of pila points left, but there have been no lead balls found.

I know absence is no proof. I am just suggesting the idea that they may not be lead at all. My pila all weigh around 3lbs which is rather light compared to some I have handled. I just dont see adding another couple of pounds to it with a lead ball.
"...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."


a.k.a. Paul M.
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#14
Any reason to believe that the pila needed the extra punch? Anyone done a little chart as to the region and date of known pila with this "lead weight"? The era and region may give us some insight as to who the romans were fighting at the time, so we can see if there is any corelation between the armour worn by the enemy soldiers and the need for more puncture power in the javelins.
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Magnus/Matt
Du Courage Viens La Verité

Legion: TBD
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#15
Oh I agree Paul- I'm not a fan of the theory either for the same reasons, I mean if it were necessary or significantly advantageous, there'd have been lots of them- but then why haven't we found any evidence? There are lots of pilum shanks but none of the supposed weights? Difficult to reconcile.

The thing is that lead, presuming the ball is a separate element in the first place, does make the most sense. Ceramic is too fragile and difficult to replace, wood wouldn't function well as a weight, and copper alloy would be WAY too costly, especially when less lead, which is easier to work with and cheaper, would do the job.

Of course it could simply be carved decorative element for all we know- not exactly a high priority on a missile weapon like the pilum, but those depicted could be parade versions (which the eagles on the 'weight' could indicate).

And there's a later parallel that's undeniable: the plumbata. Lead is used to weight the darts, so it's not unreasonable to look at the sculptures and see the resemblance. Of course there's the fact that plumbata are just little darts and the small lead weight on them was deemed sufficient for use and surely the pilum without any additional weight was heavier than a complete dart, so that again returns us to the question of whether the pilum really needed any additional weight...
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