05-15-2007, 10:09 AM
To Geala/Wolfgang : a brief point..Earlier , when it was pointed out that flax could only be grown in a small part of S.W. Greece ( though that small part exported it in Mycenean times), it was also pointed out that the Greeks brisk import/export trade meant that they could easily have imported as much flax/linen as needed. The same holds true, of course, in the case of leather/hides ----- so not a conclusive argument either way.
To Tarbicus : You are right that Everson is hardly a good source... the idea here was to examine the original source material with a fresh, unbiased eye rather than seek to air old opinions.
The two presents to Greek Templesof Pharoah Amaris were designed to clothe what were almost certainly over-lifesize statues, and have nothing to do with Greek armour practices. At best, it would only demonstrate that Egypt was capable of producing linen corselets, which no-one is disputing.
To Paul Allen : Did you suggest that leather segmentata were ridiculous ? Sorry to pounce on this, but it is a widely held view and it provides a classic lesson to beware of what we THINK we know. ( forgive me using this as an example, no personal criticism or disrespect is intended whatsoever )
What if , fellow RATters, I were to suggest not only that leather segmented armour existed, but that I had virtually absolute proof that it did ???? ( I can almost hear the murmurs of Heresy, Heresy !!)
Not only that, but it existed precisely at the height of segmentata use in Rome and featured on a famous Roman monument ??
Do I have your attention yet ??
Then let me tell you a story. In 1975, excited by the revelations in Robinson's "Armour of Imperial Rome", I travelled to Italy to do some first-hand research ( lesson 1 - no substitute for first hand research). In Rome I stood in awe before that wonderful monument to my favourite Emperor, Trajan.....................As I wandered around it, I was drawn by the carvings on the base, and with a sharp intake of breath, I realised what I was looking at. Unlike the carvings on the spiral, which were simplified and stylised, the carvings on the base were like "photographs in stone". Incredibly detailed and life-sized ( aprox ) were objects which were very likely the 'spolia' of Trajan's dacian campaigns. If the sculptors had never seen a frontier legionary and based their legionaries on Praetorians, then they all too obviously had the spolia in front of them to carve Dacian/Sarmatian/Bastarnae arms and weapons, swords life-sized and incredibly detailed, helmets, shields, quivers, arrows, falxes, axes and spearheads. It was the next best thing to having the weapons intact !
And among the long sleeved scale coats and other armour, an incredible piece. Segmented armour that came down to the hips with no vertical shoulder pieces. Instead, the segmented armour ran horizontally across the shoulders, and continued into short sleeved tubular pieces. The shoulders were secured by straps that ran vertically over the shoulders, and at the front. The armour was bent and clearly flexible. Each segment was fastened at the front by a strap and buckle !! Fifteen or so of them, the whole thing looking like a series of leather belts fastened round the body. The armour was associated with a spangenhelm type helmet.
In an instant, I understood why historians/archaeologists had logically concluded that the stylised segmentata armour on the column were leather, because this piece, in such detail, could be nothing else.......
Segmented leather armour DID exist in 105 A.D., and is illustrated clearly on Trajan's Column !!! But it was Sarmatian rather than Roman....... still sure that leather segmentata didn't exist ?? The Romans copied many other things Sarmatian !!
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To Tarbicus : You are right that Everson is hardly a good source... the idea here was to examine the original source material with a fresh, unbiased eye rather than seek to air old opinions.
The two presents to Greek Templesof Pharoah Amaris were designed to clothe what were almost certainly over-lifesize statues, and have nothing to do with Greek armour practices. At best, it would only demonstrate that Egypt was capable of producing linen corselets, which no-one is disputing.
To Paul Allen : Did you suggest that leather segmentata were ridiculous ? Sorry to pounce on this, but it is a widely held view and it provides a classic lesson to beware of what we THINK we know. ( forgive me using this as an example, no personal criticism or disrespect is intended whatsoever )
What if , fellow RATters, I were to suggest not only that leather segmented armour existed, but that I had virtually absolute proof that it did ???? ( I can almost hear the murmurs of Heresy, Heresy !!)
Not only that, but it existed precisely at the height of segmentata use in Rome and featured on a famous Roman monument ??
Do I have your attention yet ??
Then let me tell you a story. In 1975, excited by the revelations in Robinson's "Armour of Imperial Rome", I travelled to Italy to do some first-hand research ( lesson 1 - no substitute for first hand research). In Rome I stood in awe before that wonderful monument to my favourite Emperor, Trajan.....................As I wandered around it, I was drawn by the carvings on the base, and with a sharp intake of breath, I realised what I was looking at. Unlike the carvings on the spiral, which were simplified and stylised, the carvings on the base were like "photographs in stone". Incredibly detailed and life-sized ( aprox ) were objects which were very likely the 'spolia' of Trajan's dacian campaigns. If the sculptors had never seen a frontier legionary and based their legionaries on Praetorians, then they all too obviously had the spolia in front of them to carve Dacian/Sarmatian/Bastarnae arms and weapons, swords life-sized and incredibly detailed, helmets, shields, quivers, arrows, falxes, axes and spearheads. It was the next best thing to having the weapons intact !
And among the long sleeved scale coats and other armour, an incredible piece. Segmented armour that came down to the hips with no vertical shoulder pieces. Instead, the segmented armour ran horizontally across the shoulders, and continued into short sleeved tubular pieces. The shoulders were secured by straps that ran vertically over the shoulders, and at the front. The armour was bent and clearly flexible. Each segment was fastened at the front by a strap and buckle !! Fifteen or so of them, the whole thing looking like a series of leather belts fastened round the body. The armour was associated with a spangenhelm type helmet.
In an instant, I understood why historians/archaeologists had logically concluded that the stylised segmentata armour on the column were leather, because this piece, in such detail, could be nothing else.......
Segmented leather armour DID exist in 105 A.D., and is illustrated clearly on Trajan's Column !!! But it was Sarmatian rather than Roman....... still sure that leather segmentata didn't exist ?? The Romans copied many other things Sarmatian !!
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"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
