Gladius thrust?

[Vitapondera]

I'm new to the gladius so have some questions. If there's a website that describes gladius/scutum techniques in detail please list the link. Thanks in advance.

Anyone know what the standard gladius thrust was like?

1) Was it left foot forward with a right straight arm thrust (sort of like a boxer's cross)?

2) Was the blade horizonal or vertical when thrusting? With horizonal it seems you'd be coming in at an angle to your opponent instead of straight on. Unlike a rapier it seems the gladius can't point as straight when turned horizontal.

Thanks!

[M. Demetrius]

I'm no expert, but think of what you're thrusting into:

1) into the abdomen, it's not important which way the plane of the blade is, because it will penetrate and wound at any angle.

2) into the ribs, the blade should be parallel to the ground, so the point goes between the ribs, rather than having to try to cut through them.

At the back of the knee, the blade should again be flat to the ground, but pulled back toward the front of the knee, as the blade slices through the tendons.

I would say the typical stance would have the left leg forward, but of course, a passing thrust would be used when advancing or retreating a step, putting the right leg forward temporarily. This stance provides less protection for the legs, though, as the scutum would be on the left side. Some armies put a greave on the left only, as did various kinds of gladiators...indicating the favoring of left leg forward.

Any way you go, it's better to be the one holding that gladius than the one being cut, yes?

[Screaming Eagle]

Remember lads, six inches of point beats any amount of edge!

[Matthew]

You know it has long struck me as strange that Vegetius rams that point home, considering that most Ancient Warrior types must have been acquainted with the deadliness of wounds inflicted by Spears...

[Hibernicus]

Basics

Stand balanced, knees bent, feet about shoulder width apart

Scutum held close, left knee against the board, top of the scutum against your left shoulder, scutum canted slightly back

Gladius held in a comfortable position, low, not high....

Low line thrust, straight out or slightly diagonal to your right ... your hand never extends beyond the scutum.. stick your arm out get it hit by the Centurio or lopped off by some Celt. Do a fencing lunge and die.

In Leg IX we call the low line attack "gvts and nvts"...

Never thrust in such a way as to cause youself to get off balance.
The tip only has to move a few inches.. you do not need to skewer him through and through... just touch him..

You can direct your point.. top of oppenent's thigh, groin, inner thigh, lower abdomen, lower ribs.. With practice you learn to see the target at a glance, anticipate the target moving into range, and know through rote practice and drill where the target will be even if you can't actually see his thigh or abdomen.

If you are tight to your right with your shieldmate your blade will most likely be vertical.. slips past your scutum and his with minimal interference.

Second rank is free to attack high line.. against an opponent that might be pressed against the shield wall. Stab at a man's face and he raises his shield opening up the low line attack by the soldiers in the front rank. "The Celtic Conundrum" we call it... gee, get stabbed in the nvts or the face? Choose quickly! .. BZZZZZ!...times up!!

We also like to say that you do not need to kill him just wound him. A wounded opponent bleeding on the ground in front of your scutum does not like to be stood upon by his fellow "Gaul". Wound the 2nd guy. Neither wants to be there or stood on.. makes it real hard for that 3rd fellow to fight well when he has to stand on his dying countrymen or astride them.

There are several other attacks, thrusts and slashes that present themselves.. targets of opportunity..

Enjoy!

[Iosephus]

Richards,

interesting technics, I really enjoyed reading them. Does your group have some written training material about your fighting technics?

I mean something you could share (for example PM it to some fellows like me )?

BTW do you have some 'standard tactics' against opponents armed with spears? I ask this because normally they have far greater reach than you and the tactic described above cannot be deployed unless you step forward from the line breaking it and open yourself for side attacks.

[Hibernicus]

We are working on a photo essay for the webpage

May favorite tactic against an opponent with a spear, a thrusting spear as oppossed to one that's thrown, is archery. An arrow is simply a longer spear

Another, if he is massed, is to close quickly, faster than he can retreat. Once you can get in under the first rank of tips, say agaist a phalanx, use the scutum to lift the points upwards and then drive forward. From my experience spearmen drop their spears and attempt to draw short weapons further negating the effect of massed spears.

Other gladius techniques..

A thrust of faith.. knowing an opponent is pressed hard against your scutum, you can feel him there and do not actually need to see him... you can stab across the face of your scutum, thrusting the point hard to the left, parellel to the face of the scutum.. you will be stabbing at his shield side, but if he has his shield in high guard his lower target area is exposed, perhaps a thrust towards where his knee should be... a few quick thrusts and you'll make good contact

A slash from a high guard down the slot between your scutum and your shieldmate's .. this can be a slashing tip shot or a full slash
..combined with a thrust.. ouch! Slash down then thrust...

Another interesting technique is to turn the gladius so that your thumb is at the pommel and not the hilt, your palm facing inwards... allows you to stab shoulder high when the press of bodies is too tight for effective lowline thrusts... has the effect of keeping your arm behind the scutum.... your wrist does not have to be torqued in an awkward weak angle for a high line attack as it would be if you raised your elbow and twisted your wrist so that the back of your hand was facing your face..

And remember you do not have to thrust hard.. maybe fast.. and if the press of bodies is tight you only need to push the tip in...

I'm all for targets of opportunity, but only when the opponent is in disarray. Any miles who steps out of line to get a kill endangers everyone.

Don't advance faster than the slowest guy. Line intergrity is essential.

One of the fun things about these techniques is that 3, 4, 5, guys can attack the same opponent at once. .. or in a rolling series of attacks

And miles can help each other out... if I am to the left of Gaius I can say "Gaius high" and an instant after he stabs high I stab out diagonally, low to my right... working together to take out the man pressing against Gaius's scutum.

This comes with experience and fighting with rudis shoulder to shoulder through many hours and months of drill with the same men standing next to you.

You can imagine the miles chattering to each other.. calling shots if you will.. urging each other on... none of this chaotic gutteral shouting you see in movies

Imagine the second or third rank with more experienced milites coaching the rookies in front of them. "Agelastus, high right.." ..many eyes working together...

We've done and do all of these things in SCA war combat with exceptional success.

[Marcus Julius]

We've done and do all of these things in SCA war combat with exceptional success.

I can't wait to get together with some fellow Romans at an SCA war! PM on the way

Anyway, I have another suggestion on how a legionary unit might get close in to a spear unit: PILA! Toss in a pilum or two to break up their line, then move in quickly. My understanding is this would have been the typical roman method. (Of course, this won't work in SCA due to the rules of combat, although javelin rain, would cause the opponent to duck and cover which might allow the rapid closing)

[Jeroen Pelgrom]

from my experience with medieval sword-fighting, other ideas:

- hit him in the face with your pommel
- thrust downwards over your shield to his neck/shoulder
- thrust upwards to his armpit (most likely to be not armoured)

[Bhuark]

I'd have to disagree with those tactics in a tight formation, Jereon ( with the exception of the last ). Fighting close as the miles did, you wouldn't not want to raise your arm too high ( if you even could with your neighbor's shield pressing into you ) to thrust downward as that would possibly put you off balance and expose your arm. Diddo with the face-bash. Both of these sword-swinging types of motions don't really fit in well with close-formation tactics. Neither with the gladius' general characteristics. I think an upward thrust would be possible, but for the most part, I would think low-thrusts would be the course for the day. Abdominal wounds are atrociously incapacitating and painful. Shreiking foes holding their ( soft and full of vsual-cue blood to pour out ) would have made a) an easy target that b) demoralizes the guy behind the screamer. If the thrust went low, as it would be more likely in a press, then it could hit the genitals or legs, both of which, again, are pretty much instantly debilatating wounds. That good ole femoral artery could get punched, and then its just a matter of time, really seconds, before the light-headedness would set in. I'd imagine one's short, rapid thrusts were mainly done with more of a "feel" then an actual view, as one would want to be ducking as much as possible behind the scutum. Not to mention, as real foes are bashing into the line, one could never know when one's neighbor's shield was going to bonk them sideways, perhaps blocking any thrust attempts for a second or two. Hunkered down behind a scutum, I just don't think that any broad swings or "over the top" thrusts/bashings would be the blow-de-jour for a Roman in combat. I'm sure it happened, but I think those moves would hinder a formation rather than help it.

[Peroni]

Glad that the face hasn't been left out a as one of the primary targets? :twisted:

Tacitus (The Agricola) mentions it as a tactic used by the auxilia advancing on the Picts at the battle of Mons Graupius

[Martin Wallgren]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wW3U...elated&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRDUb...elated&search=


Found this on the net...

[M. Demetrius]

During one of the battles of one of the civil wars, a centurion (Gracchus?) is recorded as having been stabbed through the mouth, out the back of the neck with a gladius as he shouted encouragement to his men.

Not career enhancing.

[Robert Vermaat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wW3U...elated&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRDUb...elated&search=
Found this on the net...

Links don't seem to work due to malformed url.

[Bhuark]

Glad that the face hasn't been left out a as one of the primary targets? :twisted:

Tacitus (The Agricola) mentions it as a tactic used by the auxilia advancing on the Picts at the battle of Mons Graupius

Hmmm, Adrian, not really trying to say that the face wasn't a good target, just that swinging one's short thrusting sword up and over or around the front of the shield sort of defeats the point of everyone standing abreast with their shields interlocked. My only point was that in the press of men and metal, a short sword like the gladius, thrust out from behind a wall of scutum would have been a prudent and effective tactic, instead of swinging it around willy-nilly ( as seen in film and TV ) over one's head.