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Full Circle Panuela ?
#16
I'm a bit late in entering the discussion, but I really favor the "wrap around" paenula. I have been using the "poncho" type which I got from LEGXX site and find that the cold air sure comes in on the sides with the oval shape. I recognize that the openings on the side does allow for the easier access to ones gladius, however, most of the time if it is so cold as to need a paenula, it is for guard duty or marching - not usually for combat or maneuvers.
Just my thought.
Cn. Marsinius
LEGXXII
"Deks" - Cincinnati
Gnaeus Marsinius
Centurio COHIIII LEGXXII PR
(aka - Deks Cincinnati, OH)
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#17
A sash, belt, or cord around the outside of the cloak (whichever kind, whichever era) adds tons to the warmth of the garment. I've found the best way to have that added is to hold your arms outstretched, and have somebody else tie the belt around. That leaves room for arm movement. It would make drawing a gladius harder, though.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#18
Ahem!

Why have you guys not looked at Roman Military Clothing 1? Is this evidence of poor marketing or something else?

Your cloak sounds interesting Gaius Marcus. Any pictures?

Paenula, I would say semi circular with hood. Yellow brown wool would be appropriate and if you take the evidence from the wall painting at Pompeii showing a soldier wearing one and an actual example from the same period found in Bellana you could decorate it with narrow purple clavii.

Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.

"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.

"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
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#19
Graham,

Its actually your artwork which has inspired me to consider making more full cloaks than I have in the past.

I usually make them in a half circle, but they dont seem to wrap around enough on us larger guys. I believe its in Vol 2 of your books that shows a figure drinking from a cup while wearing a paneula. This is the full look that I am trying to capture.
"...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."


a.k.a. Paul M.
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#20
Quote:Ahem!
Why have you guys not looked at Roman Military Clothing 1? Is this evidence of poor marketing or something else?

Yes.
I think we did not mention it enough on this forum Graham! Big Grin In fact, may I suggest you add these images to your signature?
[Image: sumnerbook1.jpg] [Image: sumnerbook2.jpg] [Image: sumnerbook4.jpg]
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#21
Hello Paul

The illustration from Pompeii and my reconstruction are in vol 1. The painted reconstruction was based on a semi circular design that I have had reconstructed. It is large enough to cover someone wearing armour. Sadly the Paenula hood will always now attract Lotr or Star Wars comments

Many re-enactors cloaks are not as big as the original examples which survive, or the measurements given in a papyrus document from Egypt for a military rectangular cloak of Sagum type which was also the same dimensions as the hospital blankets ordered for the Roman army. However the length of the examples of Paenula cloaks shown in sculptures varies so different sizes are possible.

As Jim pointed out you can flip the sides up of the Paenula cloak to show off the side arms. The weight should hold the sides in place on the shoulders. The reconstructed design of my cloak was copied on one by Hero Granger-Taylor which was in turn based on a late Roman Paenula. An earlier example exists from Bellana which lacks the later additional flap at the throat but it too was semi circular.

It is not really clear how the Paenula was fastened at the front. The Camomile and Chatsworth sculptures would appear to show button or toggle type fasteners while other sculptures seem to show a stitched front or are simply plain. I do not know what means of fastening was used on the surviving examples.

A white Paenula is mentioned in the Vindolanda tablets as well as undercloaks, Subpaenulas.

Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.

"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.

"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
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#22
Thanks Graham!

I appreciate your reply. Would you mind sharing the measurements on your reconstruction?
"...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."


a.k.a. Paul M.
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#23
Graham,

Do we have any evidence to show what the buttons you mention may have been made from and what dimensions they may have been?

Regards,

Scott Goring.
Scott Goring
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#24
Scott I have been using a fibula to close my cloaks.
"...quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."


a.k.a. Paul M.
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#25
Quote:Thanks Graham!

I appreciate your reply. Would you mind sharing the measurements on your reconstruction?
_________________


Quote:Graham,

Do we have any evidence to show what the buttons you mention may have been made from and what dimensions they may have been?

My cloak measures just under 3m across the top straight edge and around 1.35 from just under the hood to the bottom of the semi circle. The hood itself adds an extra 40cm. It is in fact a little bit smaller overall than the existing cloak from Egypt. After nearly 20 years of freezing in the Ermine Street Guard cloaks we were issued with I can honestly say that the one and only time I was able to wear my Paenula on Guard duty I was as warm as toast while everyone around me was shivering.

The only article I know that deals with fasteners is 'Button and Loop Fasteners in the Roman Provinces', by J.P. Wild published in Britannia Vol 1 (1970) which should be available in good University Libraries.

I have two types fixed to my cloak one circular the other a bar which look like the ones on the Camomile Sculpture. However I have to say they do not attach very easily and they do not close the cloak neatly at the front. There is in fact no real guarantee that they are what they are described as, or that they are fixed correctly on my cloak. Such is the nature of archeology and reconstruction.

Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.

"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.

"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
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#26
Quote:My cloak measures just under 3m across the top straight edge and around 1.35 from just under the hood to the bottom of the semi circle.

1.35 x 2 = 2.70. Is that what it is ("just under 3m"), or is your paenula semi-oval rather than strictly semi-circular?

Thanks,
M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER
(Alexander Kyrychenko)
LEG XI CPF

quando omni flunkus, mortati
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#27
Hello Alexander.

Here is a very quick sketch, not to scale and without the hood. Hope this helps.

I suppose you could say the original is slightly more semi oval shaped rather than a true semi circular

Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.

"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.

"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
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#28
I got the idea, just wanted more clarity on terminology/measurments, since I am thinking of making one for myself. It's all clear now.

Thanks,
M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER
(Alexander Kyrychenko)
LEG XI CPF

quando omni flunkus, mortati
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#29
Here are images of the Camomile Street Soldier (both from the Romarmy.com Imagebase) who is clearly wearing a more circular cloak- given how it hangs (the sides meeting straight up the middle at the front) and a close-up shot of the closure showing two buttons and two maybe toggles(?). Certainly, as is the case with so many other things, there were likely a myriad of ways to secure cloaks- buttons, toggles, pins- and it'd seem perfectly reasonable to me to expect buttons and toggles, for example, to be made of bone, hardwood or metal depending on what an individual wanted, could get, etc.
See FABRICA ROMANORVM Recreations in the Marketplace for custom helmets, armour, swords and more!
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#30
Thanks Matt for posting the picture but I would not say he is clearly wearing a more circular cloak at all. I can achieve the same effect with my own which is semi circular but perhaps bigger than a lot of other recreated cloaks.

There are more drapes in the Camomile cloak which would suggest that it is finer wool than used in my cloak but that no doubt would be much more expensive.

Graham.
"Is all that we see or seem but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe.

"Every brush-stroke is torn from my body" The Rebel, Tony Hancock.

"..I sweated in that damn dirty armor....TWENTY YEARS!', Charlton Heston, The Warlord.
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