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Roman Ringmail...
#1
Hail, my friends, and greetings from the frozen North!
Being new to this forum, i am still finding my feet, so i hope you bear with me! Before i get to the subject, i would like to tell you a little about my train of thought, by way of introduction, and to prepare you for anything else i write on the Forum! :wink: Firstly, anything i write is opinion and only that. As far as i am concerned, there is a difference between fact and opinion. Opinions are like noses...everybody has one! Facts are more like, say, a Saab 96 V4 Monte Carlo...rare, and if you really want one, you have to search hard! :lol: I am always open to other opinions. I think it was Ben Johnson that said " I may not agree with what you say, sir, but i defend to the death your right to say it!". It is my motto, and should be the motto of every Forum Tongue The desire to make things better or easier, and money/wealth. These have been both cause and effect for politics, religion, and of course war. The only 'modern thinking' i think exists, and some re-enactors i have met are particulary guilty of this, is that our forebears were more than happy to do extremely labour intensive work without trying to improve their lot, and were happy to wear and use uncomfortable and/or impractical clothing and equipment. There is always someone with a better idea. If it were not true, and mankind did not try always to make things better, we would still be hunter-gatherers living in caves. :wink:
Anyway, on to subject. I make ringmail, and i have read as much as i can find about Roman ringmail. It would appear that it was composed of alternate rings of rivetted and whole rings, and the general concensus was that the whole rings were stamped out of plate metal. I don't think so, and here's why ( bear in mind what i said above..). Firstly, having made quite a few shirts, i have a bit of a practical understanding of them. Until recently i was making my own rings, then i discovered ready made rings ( aaahhh...what bliss! :lol: ) and found that i only needed to open half the rings, and it honestly quartered the time! This is, of course why the rows of solid rings were used. I mean, i knew that, but now i have a practical understanding...( well, fluh..) I also happen to work in a place where washers are made, and it was this that really made me think. To stamp one ring out of plate metal takes quite some force. Therefore i think the solid rings were hammer welded. The rings would be already made. It would be so much easier to take half of them, heat them to the right temperature, and strike them in the right way. This, as i am given to understand, would produce a flat, sealed ring. On the other hand, going to the trouble of producing, or buying plate metal, and then indulging in some very labour intensive work, seems unlikely. We know the Romans made use of water power, so it could be that this was used, but think of the comparitive logistics and cost. even were one to use slaves, they and their families still have to be fed clothed and housed.( Please feel free to correct me here. As i understand it the Romans, broadly speaking, treated slaves well, especially if they worked hard and/or were skilled) so why have lots of slaves doing something that took lots of time, when you could have one or two making lots of rings in a comparitively short time? If, of course, slaves were used at all. My theory is that hammer welding rings is much much quicker at producing lots of closed rings, shirts therefore being produced more quickly . We, of course, use Steel, but unhardened, and have the luxury of automated machines, but the force required, or used anyway, to make ONE is huge. If water power was used, one would have to locate the right place to build a fabrica, or re-direct a suitable source of water, and build the appropriate machinery, if indeed machinery was used. If not, i can't imagine how rings could be stamped out effeciently, or in any number. Think how many Ringshirts were made during the whole Roman period !!! Confusedhock: . This is where my 'Human Factor' comes in. I can't imagine that people would go to all the that trouble when there is a much more simple alternative, which they surely knew about? If anyone can tell me of any source of information, i would be really grateful. And of course, if anyone can correct me on any point, i would be pleased to hear your remarks! Big Grin
Take good care.
Adrian
( Gauis Peregre...Cohors IIII Dalmaticus)
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#2
Ave, and Welcome to RAT!

Quote:There are two things that have driven Humanity since the dawn of mankind: The desire to make things better or easier, and money/wealth.

Well, I hope your heart isn't set on this line of thinking, or you may find it hard going, here. The more I learn about the ancients, the more I find that they simply did not think like we do. They did all manner of things in ways that strike us as needlessly difficult, and they did it consistently. The whole idea of "practical" Romans went out the window for me a long time ago.

Quote:I make ringmail, and i have read as much as i can find about Roman ringmail. It would appear that it was composed of alternate rings of rivetted and whole rings, and the general concensus was that the whole rings were stamped out of plate metal. I don't think so, and here's why

I'll give you one of the Saabs, which aren't always as rare as you might think, before Erik D. Schmid arrives to (cheerfully!) chew your leg off! I've seen a photo of an original piece of Roman mail, and the burred edges of the punched rings were very clear. They were punched from sheet, no other possibility. I believe that microexamination of some of the solid rings also shows that the slag inclusions run across the ring, as they would if punched from sheet. If the rings were made of welded wire, the slag would run around the circumference, which in Roman mail they do not (as far as I know!). Erik is the Mail Man, though.

Quote:Think how many Ringshirts were made during the whole Roman period !!! Confusedhock: . This is where my 'Human Factor' comes in. I can't imagine that people would go to all the that trouble when there is a much more simple alternative, which they surely knew about?

Ha, you need to expand your imagination! Yes, the work put into equiping an army is certainly mind-boggling, no argument there. But the slave labor you were talking about makes many of the chores free--there's your money saving. And we don't know if there was a simpler alternative, really, since many of the obscure little details of the various processes are still not well known to us. What seems easier or better to us might not have been easier or better for them. Sometimes it's best not to ask "Why", you'll just lose sleep over it.

Enjoy! Vale,

Matthew
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
Legio XX, USA
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.larp.com/legioxx/">http://www.larp.com/legioxx/
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#3
Welcome, Adrian! Big Grin

Quote:Ave, and Welcome to RAT!

Gauis Peregre:1s7yhi0s Wrote:There are two things that have driven Humanity since the dawn of mankind: The desire to make things better or easier, and money/wealth.
I think Matt put it best here that, basically, sometimes the Romans did things without what appears to be rhyme or reason, but then you have to take a step back and realize that you are viewing it from our perspective, a society that values efficiency. In the Roman world, doing things the way they had been done in the past won over mostly anything else, hence why they were so hesitant to change and actually welcomed reforms which returned them to an older way of doing things (which also explains why Caesar and the Gracchi were viewed as threat to Roman society, much less the Christians). So if a method seems odd--and I assure you, there are many (and we spend a great deal of time bashing at our faces with scuta just to prove that point :wink: )--no worries, that's normal.

Again, welcome!
[Image: RAT_signature2.png]
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#4
Hi Adrian and welcome. Unfortunately, your "simple alternative" is not so simple. Romans couldn't just wander into a hardware store and purchase a spool of wire.

In order to make a welded link you first need to create a bloom and beat it either into flat plate and cut off a strip for drawing, or you need to beat the bloom into a rod which is thin enough to pass through the largest hole in your drawplate. Then you need to create the wire - a laborious process involving repeated passes through successively smaller holes in the draw plate. Then you need to wrap the wire around a mandrel and cut off individual links. Then you need to beat the links flat. Then you need to forge weld them together.

Punched rings require two steps. Hammering (or rolling?) the bloom into a flat plate. Then punching out the rings.

This ignores the fact that wrought iron needs to be of better quality to be drawn into wire than hammering into plate. If there is too much slag or it is unevenly distributed, it is very difficult to draw through a drawplate.

It also ignores the fact that it is very difficult to hammer-weld a small iron ring. The anvil sucks out the heat too quickly. Steve Sheldon proposed an alternative method which makes more sense. The ring is held in the furnace with a pair of tongs and the tongs themselves are used to apply the pressure and create the weld.

It seems to me that the Romans were abiding by their stereotypical practical and efficient nature when they made punched rings ;-) )
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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#5
Hej på er!
Thankyou all...Very much what i wanted to read! I appreciate the advice and comments, i really do. My trouble is i have too enquiring a mind! Big Grin lol: Monte Carlos are quite rare here, as they were an export model, i think intended for the USA. Bad example, i suppose! I own a 1967 V4, which i bought from it's original owner, who bought it to go on UN duty in the 60's, and drove it from here ( Northern Sweden) to Jerusalem! Big Grin Seriously! Take good care!
Adrian....
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