Some about the treasures you can buy in internet

[Dan Diffendale]

If you were to purchase a piece of property which happened to have a say, colonial burial plot on it, would you be justified in digging it up the burial to sell any artifacts you might find?

[Primvs Pavlvs]

If you were to purchase a piece of property which happened to have a say, colonial burial plot on it, would you be justified in digging it up the burial to sell any artifacts you might find?

Dan,

Come'on you know I am not speaking of grave robbing, stop taking it to an extreme. Finding objects your property such as coins, brooches, musketballs, arrowheads are not equal to destroying a grave.

[Dan Diffendale]

Paul, sorry to take it to extremes. I certainly don't mean to personally attack you. I just simply can't stand the wanton destruction of the archaeological record. In my opinion, speaking for myself and not as a moderator, an amateur hobbyist with a metal detector or a shovel is committing the same destructive act as an Italian tombarolo with bulldozer and explosives, it's just a matter of scale. I don't at all mean to put this on a par with murder, but just for purposes of example and illustration: you can kill one person, or you can kill dozens, or hundreds. You can say that someone who commits only a single murder is better than a serial killer, but still, in each individual case, the crime is just as bad. Each individual victim is still affected.

[floofthegoof]

Would it be helpfull if detectorists were licensed? Perhaps they could be educated in the importance of, and methods of recording one's finds? Are these people all just trying to make a buck? Seems like there would be an easier way to make a living if you only cared about money.

[Primvs Pavlvs]

Dan I did not take it as an attack we just disagreed on something. I still do not agree that a record is damaged when someone sells a coin, or even a brooch thats found. Many things have been lost, or discarded since man first started using tools. Many things that we find were simply dropped, or thrown away because they were no longer useful to the individual at that time. I cannot tell you how many arrowheads I have found by just walking old dirt roads, or in creekbeds. Those were just random finds, no way of telling where this point washed from. So stray finds to me are just that stray finds..and I fall back on my original statement with that.

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

What happens if you have a roman fort inside our property? You have the right to destroy it?

Or if you live in a european city over a roman one, you have the right to destroy the roman buildings to build your house.

You have right to be compensated, but the cultural things don't have any property because are a universal heritage of all the people.

[Tarbicus]

Licensing metal detectors may well be a way, but if someone's going to rob tombs as Danno describes then they'll just use them illegally. Just look at the amount of shootings there are even with licenses being necessary for firearms.

For some reason the internet is fingered as the bad boy of all this, but there is a story I have to tell concerning the "Roman" helmet in the Toledo Museum of Art, USA. It looks just like the ones on the Columns of Trajan and MA, and like the ones in HBO's Rome series. When I saw it I almost dropped to the floor, but then saw a reference to a helmet at the museum being found to be a fake. I couldn't bear to not know so I called the museum 15 minutes ago, where I was told by a very helpful person it was indeed a fake (they're sending me the details by post).

The relevance here is that the dealer the museum bought it from was acting in good faith and had no reason to believe it was other than genuine. But even a museum and a reputable dealer got taken in by the original owner or manufacturer, and it took a metalographic/metallurgical analysis to find out.

The crooks aren't only on the internet.

[Dan Diffendale]

Here's an old article (2000) with an interview with an Italian tomb-robber
http://www.museum-security.org/tombarolo.htm

[L. Aufidius Pantera]

By no means are the crooks only on the internet.

For example, I used to work for a museum that routinely bought military diplomas from a Bulgarian "site robber". The guy is well known, he has good sources and goes over sites that are being excavated by western teams during the winter months when they are not there... so much for destroying the archaeological record. The museum in question buys diplomata from him in order to have the academic edge in future discussions and for new publications.

The point is, that museums such as that can be (and are being) reported to authorities such as the Italian Antiquities police or relevant branches of interpol (see cesar's post). And hopefully the big deals can be broken in the long run.

The thing the internet does is open up the problem to ridiculously huge dimensions - there have been detectorists before, but marketplaces such as ebay have encouraged people to pick up artefacts merely for making a profit. And for important archaeological information to be lost you do not need to "steal" the entire contents of an Egyptian tomb or a gold hoard fro m Thrace...frequently something as small as a discarded brooch, or a single coin somebody inadvertendly dropped 2000 years ago can change the entire understanding of a site...

The problem could (sort of) be kept in check (unsuccessfully) before - but the advent of large scale detectorism and the internet as a means to pass this stuff on really has opened the floodgates...

Still no solution in sight though...

C.

[caiusbeerquitius]

Well, as far as ebay is concerned: In many European countries the sale of unprovenanced objects is illegal. When e.G. Nazi-Symbolas are concerned, ebay is able to do something against the sale of the objects. They should be able to stop the sale of historic artifacts as well in the same manner. Apparently noone so far has tried to do anything against the sale of unprovenanced objects via ebay...

[Tarbicus]

I wish I could say something more, but you can't shut down the internet :?

[Tarbicus]

Apparently noone so far has tried to do anything against the sale of unprovenanced objects via ebay...

Well there, something can be done, but it would take a proper campaign and constant petitioning of Ebay, as well as getting the message out there.

[caiusbeerquitius]

In Germany handling stolen goods is a "Offizialdelikt". As soon as the public prosecutor's office is notified properly (!), even if anonymously, they have to investigate, and have to take action. Same for helping handling stolen goods. Sale of unprovenced cultural goods is in Germany seen as "handling stolen goods", actually.
The state is reluctant to do something, though. Why? Taxes, of course. Money.

[Dan Diffendale]

Interesting comparandum?

Sale of Religious Relics Sparks Call for eBay Boycott
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/202/story_20250_1.html