Some about the treasures you can buy in internet

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

Hello.

The persons of this forum who know me know that I support a very hostile position on the sale of pieces in Internet. The case is that, for my professional activity as archeologist in Spain, I have had access to several reports, both of the National Police and of the GUARDIA CIVIL as well as of detentions and police interventions against the traffic of archaeological pieces. Of these reports they concludes:


-That groups are responsible of the total disappearance of a lot of sites and the serious deterioration of many others.

-The illegal groups make two kinds of illegal actions: sale of archaeological objects, someone of them before robbed, and the modification, falsification, aging of artistic new or authentic objects to make them to pass for pieces of major antiquity.

Including the creation of pieces, the manufacture of dies and obtaining of coins, the falsification and creation of expert's reports with false contents, in order to resale to others legal purchasers.

-The Police underline that the falsifications of cultural goods have reached such a degree of perfection that the valuation realized by the experts must be oftenly corroborated for laboratory reports.

IT'S A VERY SERIOUS PROBLEM: PLEASE DON'T BUY ANY OBJECT. MANY OF THEM ARE FALSE OR ILLEGAL.

Recents Posts here at RAT can corroborate that.

Some interesting Links:


http://www.guardiacivil.org/patrimonio/ ... b_dcha.jsp

http://www.interpol.int/Public/WorkOfArt/woafaq.asp

http://historia-antigua.blogspot.com/20 ... ms-de.html

http://www.celtiberia.net/noticia.asp?id=869

http://terraeantiqvae.blogia.com/2005/0 ... logico.php

http://www.logopress.es/guardiacivilarq ... nov05.html

http://www.guardiacivil.org/patrimonio/ ... b_dcha.jsp

[GALLA PLACIDIA]

Very interesting Cesar!!!
It's impressive!!!

[IMP GALLIENVS AVG]

Fake coins are a major problem, but with a trained eye most are able to spot.

As an internet coin collector/occasional seller, I personally see no problem with buying ancient coins over the internet. Usually these are metal detecting finds in the ground, and usually they are not sold as a thousand bunch. I have never bought more than 10 coins in a single bunch.

Now, to the major ethical argument on buying "illegal" coins. By buying them, they are preserved by me and respected. I learn their history. I teach some others about their history. Many when dug up are just thrown into the back room of a museum never to be seen. What is good about that?




Andrew

[caiusbeerquitius]

Well. That is the difference between a collector and a scientist. For the collector the object is precious. For the scientist knowledge is precious. But each item that is taken out of its context by the detectorists destroys possible knowledge about an archaeological site foever. It is like taking pieces out of a puzzle, like taking a link out of a chain. Apart from that, in most European coutries it is illegal, so mainly people dealing with antiques are selling contraband. Italy has meanwhile its own police for these things, hopefully the other European countries will soon follow this example, so that not too much more damage will be done in the future.

[Tarbicus]

I agree that something has to be done, but someone mentioned recently that there's a flipside to all of this; that we might be losing everything under the ground due to changes in the soil and it will all be gone in ten years anyway. What do we do?

Just found Vorti's post:
[url:1q9fjirq]http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?p=88049#88049[/url]

So, if that's the case, what's more ethical? To leave it all to rot, or to get it all as fast as possible and decipher it all later (bearing in mind that sometimes there is no way to win, only a way to limit the damage)?

[L. Aufidius Pantera]

I think it depends, and primarily agree with Christian...but then I am (pretending to be) an archaeologist. Take a case we had here, for example. On ebay, a seller appeared with a somewhat rare crossbow brooch. Now, we know he is a detectorist who roams the East Midlands around Nottingham. We also know the majority of sites that date to the period of use of crossbow brooches. Given that he found it somewhere we knew was 4th/5th century, all would be well. Yes, a precious object would have been lost to study, and deprived of its context, but we have to live with that practically every day (not that I like it).

But its equally possible that the darn thing came from a) an entirely knew site, so far unknown (unlikely, I admit) or from a site that has so far not produced decent datable evidence for a 4th/5th century occupation. In that case... well. We're none the wiser, still don't understand the late Roman occupation of the East Midlands, but somebody has a lovely little addition to their collection. Personally I think its rather sad!

Ah yes, and then there is the whole thing that there is a certain type of crossbow brooch (identified as Keller/Proettel 1 in Germany) which may in fact date to the early 3rd century. Now, one couldn't really tell from the ebay photos if it was, but its possible. This - combined with the right context - could actually have helped to re-date an entire brooch-type. Which I think is worth a lot more than Mr X making a pot of money (particularly as his ebay shop has several pages of detector finds...) and somebody having a nice addition to their mantelpiece. :evil:

As for the rotting issue... I think if we adopt that stance, what's the point of archaeology anyway - seeing that we are getting closer to blowing ourselves and the planet up by the day...

But then...I'm a bit like Cesar on the issue. Apologies for the rant...

[caiusbeerquitius]

It is not everywhere the case that the soil is in a condition where the metal objects are destroyed. It is normally the case where there is a lot of fertilizer used. In those areas it is probably reasonable to get the artifacts. This should be decided by official authorities, of course.
The problem is that the detectorists usually go to places where they are not easily seen, such as woods. In those areas, however, the conditions are normally not so that the objects are suffering from destruction.

It should be clear to everyone in the hobby, be it a reenactor, be it a hobby-historian, that the people who sell and buy unprovenanced / unpublished artifacts which are not from an official excavation, are actively harming our knowledge, our heritage and our hobby. Period.

[Tarbicus]

Thanks for that answer.

Is it known where the fertiliser's used?

[L. Aufidius Pantera]

you're right, of course... (have calmed down now), soil conditions are not the same everywhere. At the same time, not all detectoring destroys a context - in many cases the finds are not of enough impotance to make a difference archaeologically. But how do you control/police this?

One could, of course, register detectorists when they buy detectors - much like the case with guns. But is that really feasible?

I think the problem is that if the archaeology is to be protected, legislation would have to be as strict as possible... and things that would do no harm would have to be axed, too.

Perhaps a database, where any detectorist had to state what and where they found things, and open them up to detailed analysis by a local authority before being allowed to keep/sell stuff - with the relevant body having first right to buy. This would enable the artefact to be associated with a site, and if something really interesting was found, small scale excavations could follow straight away. We've worked together with some detectorists who have done this voluntarily in southern Germany, and it's a great success. But can you force people into it?

C.

[Tarbicus]

But how do you control/police this?

I don't see how it can be policed. The police, quite frankly, need to be concentrating on murders, robberies, assaults of all natures, etc, etc. I guarantee this is low priotity for them, at a time when they are stretched to the limits.

One could, of course, register detectorists when they buy detectors - much like the case with guns. But is that really feasible?

It's not as serious as guns. Guns kill people, metal detectors don't.

I think the problem is that if the archaeology is to be protected, legislation would have to be as strict as possible... and things that would do no harm would have to be axed, too.

More legislation means even more criminalisation of the general population, at a time where (in the UK at least) little old ladies are being thrown into prison for what, ten years ago, was sensibly a non-criminal act and covered by non-penal fines. You will get NO sympathy from the introduction of yet more legislation, in particular from me for sure. "Make more laws" is the lazy answer to a problem, and does not necessarily take into account the reality of a situation or make any impact on it. It certainly overcrowds the prisons though, which in turn breeds more criminals, especially the way they are run now. Don't forget, there are already laws supposed to cover much of this.

Perhaps a database, where any detectorist had to state what and where they found things, and open them up to detailed analysis by a local authority before being allowed to keep/sell stuff - with the relevant body having first right to buy.

I think this is already in place here in the UK. There is certainly a means for all finds to be documented and provenanced, along with photos, and they are available even on the internet to view. I don't have the bookmark to hand, but will post it if I come across it. That's the right path as far as I'm concerned.

[Caballo]

Jim,

Was this what you were looking for - the Portable Antiquities scheme?
http://www.finds.org.uk/

Cheers

Caballo

[Tarbicus]

That's the one, thanks Caballo.

[IMP GALLIENVS AVG]

Most coins are dug up in some farmer's field as a group of one or two, or a few. Is it really bad to buy it online, preserving it, studying it and finding out as much as possible from it? I also publish my collection online should others want to see it. And I am some sort of criminal for preserving history and sharing it with the public? The biggest problem in the coin world right now is the farmers who dig up the coins. They will scrape the coin carelessly with, say, a knife to see if it is gold or silver. If it isn't, they don't care about it. And I'M the bad one?

Andrew

[L. Aufidius Pantera]

Jim,

please don't think me one of those "throw everyone in jail" types... First of all, I didn't mean "police" as in make it a top priority for the police, but, for example, give county archaeologists or similar (more) means to have some control over sites that they know are being targeted by detectorists.

And I'm afraid legislation does not necessarily equal overcrowded prison services etc. That seems to be more of a recent New Labour phenomenon... when talking about legislation, I was thinking more in the way of hefty fines - call me blue eyed, but I think the attraction of making 10 or 15 bob out of some artefacts you pick up on ebay becomes slightly less when faced with...say a £500 fine under heritage legislation - if you are caught (which brings us back to police-less policing :wink: )

As for the portable antiquities scheme, I'm aware of it... but the big issue is that it is ... voluntary... there is "legislation" (as stated on the PAS webpage) in the form of the treasure act - which means you must report any "prehistoric" metal assemblages, anything gold and silve and coin hoards (as far as I remember)... but there still is tremendous scope for important datable evidence that could lead to the reinterpretation of entire sites to fall through holes in the system...

The only problem is, that there doesn't really seem to be any straightforward solution to the whole bar anything draconian - which, as I think everyone will agree, won't go down well with the general public. So, what do we do?

C.

[Primvs Pavlvs]

Again as a property owner of land that artifacts have been found on, I do not comprehend the idea of anyone telling me what to do with what I have found. Sell them, collect them and if I want to destroy the pieces. I feel I should have the right to do as I so choose. Its called personal freedom IMHO. Now I must say I am against people stealing them from sites that are either publically owned, or others personal property, but when its yours, its yours!