Posts: 235
Threads: 8
Joined: Jun 2005
Reputation:
0
1st. As far as I can see, thre is no scabbard. Iberian falcata scabbards are invariably metal frame (iron) structures framing a leather sheath. What I can see in the picture (admittedly I'd need to see the original) is only the upper (bronze, brass?) reinforced rim of the scabbard, which, BTW, would be upside down if it were an Iberian falcata, as in the picture posted by Tarbicus in which the first, uppermost piece of the scabbard has been wrongly placed upside down.
2nd. Also, the distal edge of the blade (fragment) is too symmetrical for a falcata. Hephestus drawing is misleading as it forces a concave profile which is not really evident in the picture.
3rd. BTW, Hephestus reconstruction of an Iberian falcata is not bad -proportions are OK, whcih is unusual- except that:
-Falcata hilts were made with bone or ivory pieces on a flat tang. (flange). No cast bronce, iron or otherwhise metallic handgrips except for just one piece (among 600 plus) which is made of different metallic parts from Almedinilla, MAN 10475) which is completely different.
-Horse's or Eagles head's in the pommel were more stylised.
-Decoration was not just incised. It is silver (sometimes copper) inlay on iron -which was a black magnetite surface- or bone/ivory
-Grooves in falcata's blades are much more complex, not just incisions, but deep cuts in the metal. See 'El armamento iberico'
-The concave part in the dorsal edge (i.e., back of the main edge near the point) is a bit too concave. Almost all are straight, enabling the falcata to be used as a thrusting sword.
What I'd like to emphasize is, this is NOT an Iberian falcata found in Holland a century after last known falcatas ceased to be used. At most, it could be a 'fashion' recreation of a falcata by an imaginative armourer, perhaps under commission by a Spaniard OR a fashion gladiatorial weapon.
Posts: 2,462
Threads: 93
Joined: Jun 2006
Reputation:
0
If the blade is still in the scabbard how can we tell?
I say X-ray the bugger!!
M.VIB.M.
Bushido wa watashi no shuukyou de gozaru.
Katte Kabuto no O wo shimeyo!
H.J.Vrielink.
Posts: 8,090
Threads: 505
Joined: Jan 2005
Reputation:
0
Okay, I'm with you now. But...
Quote:1st. As far as I can see, thre is no scabbard.
That smaller piece to the right in the photo near the start of the thread looks hollow to me. It certainly doesn't look like part of a blade.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
Posts: 235
Threads: 8
Joined: Jun 2005
Reputation:
0
Do you mean the independent fragment to the right in Vortigern Studies' post? The one reconstructed as part of the distal part of the blade in Hephestus?
Yes, you could certainly be right, in the picture it sort of looks 'hollow'.
If it were so, then a falcata would be definitively out of the question. No metal scabbards in Iberian swords (falcatas, antennae swords, even gladii hispanienses) except for imported La Tène straight swords in Catalonia -which obviously would not have such a hilt.
But many Iron Age swords were forged by joining (hammering while hot)two, three or more separate flat strips of iron. In that case, with corrosion, blades tend to 'open', sort of 'exploding', leaving gaps between the constituent strips on iron. These leave gaps that are partly hollow, partly filled with oxide; also they tend to fracture along the joints, leaving a peculiar breaking pattern just like the one in the picture. Again, I'd have to see it or have a proper set of photographs.
As for x ray scanning... it would certainly be useful provided a not too exhaustive restoration has ben forced upon the object. As Darth Vader once said 'Don't let this technological marvel obscure your mind' or something to that effect. :wink:
Posts: 8,090
Threads: 505
Joined: Jan 2005
Reputation:
0
Okey doke. Thanks for the info.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
Posts: 2,237
Threads: 275
Joined: Feb 2001
Reputation:
33
Quote:What does Mike Bishop think????
He thinks you'd be far better off listening to Fernado than me.
Mike Bishop
You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of trifles
Blogging, tweeting, and mapping Hadrian\'s Wall... because it\'s there
Posts: 1,962
Threads: 106
Joined: Apr 2003
Reputation:
7
I insist it can be a gladiatorial weapon.
We know thracian gladiators were armed with a kind of curved sword called sica. for the origins of that kind of gladiators, we can think initially they could use some sword close to a kopis or machaira.
At WISDOM 2001, Gladiators 100 BC-AD 200, Osprey editions, we can find a description of such a weapon:
"[...]sica, a scimitar-like curved blade, sometimes shown with a shell-shaped guard in wich he placed his hand. Variations of this shape are found on sculptures and mosaics, the blade shape being referred to as Danubian or Etruscan depending on the angle of the curvature. A remarkable curved-bladed weapon made of iron is preserved in the Romermuseum, Augst, Switzerland and it is generally believed to be of gladiatorial origin." P. 43
Or, if you look fot the voice falx at wikipedia, we found that:
"The Dacian falx came in two sizes: one-handed and two-handed. The shorter variant was called sica (sickle) in the Dacian language (Valerius Maximus, III,2.12). In Latin texts the weapon was described as an ensis falcatus (whence falcata) by Ovid in Metamorphose or falx supina by Juvenal in Satiriae."
And, look at the shape of that dacian weapon at the Trajan Column:
![[Image: falx_04.jpg]](http://www.gk.ro/sarmizegetusa/ranistorum/site_eng/Images/falx_04.jpg)
So, now we have a curved blade, near to a falcata/kopis in a context very posterior to the use of both weapons. What we have to do with it? Change all the cronology of falcata? Or think is another kind of weapon?
Why not a sica, or another kind of gladiator's weapon?
Generally, with ancient weapons, we have the tendence to think all of them are of militar origin. But a lot of weapons are made for hunting, self defence or, like probably that, fighting sports.
Regarding autorithy, probably Fernando Quesada is the scientific who knows more of falcata, because all the sistematitation and study of such weapon is made by himself, along a lot of articles and books about that kind of weapon and others of the iberian people. So, for me, if Fernando says it is'nt a falcata, i follow his opinion.
Posts: 2,462
Threads: 93
Joined: Jun 2006
Reputation:
0
Me does find Fernandos theories very plausible indeed!!!!!!
M.VIB.M.
i would welcome an x-ray... and a map of the find in-situ, especially because there is such a large piece of the weapon missing!!!
i would like to know the context!
M.VIB.M.
Bushido wa watashi no shuukyou de gozaru.
Katte Kabuto no O wo shimeyo!
H.J.Vrielink.
Posts: 8,090
Threads: 505
Joined: Jan 2005
Reputation:
0
Quote:Regarding autorithy, probably Fernando Quesada is the scientific who knows more of falcata
I certainly get that impression 
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
Posts: 138
Threads: 19
Joined: May 2006
Reputation:
0
I agree.
My design has been made of haste with the computer. E' effectively forced the concavity of the tip but was in order to assume one possible solution. Soon I will send other solutions to you
Vale
Posts: 138
Threads: 19
Joined: May 2006
Reputation:
0
Avete,
I have found these designs of some models of falcata.
![[Image: falcate1.jpg]](http://www.solinvictvs.it/falcate1.jpg)
As you can see, it's the possibility that the sword in object is one falcata.
Valete
Hephestus
Posts: 15,116
Threads: 415
Joined: Mar 2002
Reputation:
77
Quote:As you can see, it's the possibility that the sword in object is one falcata.
I agree! The middle one, top row, looks like a good candidate. What's the source of the image?
Posts: 2,462
Threads: 93
Joined: Jun 2006
Reputation:
0
i tend to agree and begin to think it might be a falcata derivate after all...
HOWEVER!!!!!!!
can someone please send us the SPECIFICS and context of the find in situ?????????
M.VIB.M.
Bushido wa watashi no shuukyou de gozaru.
Katte Kabuto no O wo shimeyo!
H.J.Vrielink.
Posts: 138
Threads: 19
Joined: May 2006
Reputation:
0
Ok, I try the sources, I translate them and them step to you.
Valete
Hephestus
Posts: 235
Threads: 8
Joined: Jun 2005
Reputation:
0
Hephestus and other friends:
THESE ARE NOT 'SOME DESIGNS OF FALCATAS'. This is a disaster!
The primary source for those drawings is... myself. The figures come from one of my books, titled 'El armamento Iberico' published in 1997 in Monographies Instrumentum, 3, Montagnac, France.
That scanned image comes from another Forum in which people with a very slight knowledge of scientific procedures have mixed different Figures from that book into a pout pourri , a mixture,which is inmensely misleading (see http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=2729 )
a.- Top row right: Italic machairai from Italy -I personally studied and drew some of them in the Villa Giulia and Vatican Museums- Mostly VI-V c. B.C Probably coming from Picenum (too long to explain here)
b.- Top row left: Greek kopides from Dodona, Anatolia and Bronze Age swords from Macedonia. 14th C BC and VII-V c. BC
b. Falcatas from the fourth to the second centuries BC from Cordoba and Murcia (middle and lower row).
(By the way, these are all upside down according to recognized rules for archaeological drawing).
And, believe me, these machairai and Bronze Age kopides, and Iberian falcatas, only bear a superficial resemblance to each other and to the sword discussed above, from the Netherlands.
I insist, according from the pictures so far shown, that from Holland is NOT a Spanish falcata, at most, it derives from a badly understood idea of what a falcata might have looked like.
I am a bit irritated, because the use of some of my figures without a proper understanding of the context -TEXT- in which they were placed, can lead -at is has done in this case- to great misunderstandings and mistakes. Go to a good research Library, or to Interlibrary Loan, read the 100 + written pages on the falcata and its antecedents and parallels, perhaps also read my book on the 'Iberian Falcata' (Alicante 1992), and perhaps if you are lucky examine personally a dozen examples or so -I have studied hundreds of them, and parallels in Italy and Greece-. Only them you'll get a proper understanding of the problem and will avoid silly mistakes as those made by the people in the other Forum who originally scanned and reused my work without properly studying it.
Best Regards
|
