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Hello
I am going through some of my ancient illustrations and found this one of a Sucessor 's war elephant. http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k1/JP ... celeph.jpg
The time I made it, I displayed the turret with a generic presentation. Can anyone point out to sources, regardins the materials that these turrets were made (wood, leather, etc)?
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JP Vieira
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Everson in "Warfare in Ancient Greece", says wood and leather. When you think about it, there aren't many alternatives, if you want good defensive qualities with reasonable weight.
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Hello
My main doubt is about the method of construction of these turrets.
Was it made of planks of wood (like a open ended box)? or was it an wooden frame withs leather covering it?
Does anyone know this?
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JP Vieira
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I'm no expert on this, and I don't know for sure, but I would imagine the latter would be easier and more practical.
Dave Bell/Secvndvs
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Just a footnote: not all elephants carried towers; this decadrachm coin ( http://www.geminiauction.com/details.as ... ek&search= )
shows two men on an elephant, but no structure on its back.
Felix Wang
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Hello
What I want to know, in this case, is the turrets used in the Sucessor's armies elephants.
I know they used turrets; my question is: is there any evidence (text or iconographic) about the materials and method of construction?
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JP Vieira
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Quote: For leather, read rawhide. It's much harder than tanned leather and would offer more protection if the howdah was covered in it.
As for weight, we're talking of elephants here... they could easily carry the weight of a wooden-planked howdah covered in hide, even the smaller forest elephants..
Nonetheless, one would be foolish to load the beast unnecessarily. We note that weight is always a consideration, balanced against protection.
Even so, a planked tower would be feasible, especially if you used a lightweight, self-sealing wood like poplar.
Rawhide does make good sense, but Everson does say leather and may have evidence for that, rather than rawhide. Leather seems to have been used to face shields, despite the qualities of rawhide you mentioned
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An Elefant of your average hellenistic army could curry a hauda made of bamboo or similar material skeleton with rawhide that could be reinforced with ane external or internal layer of linen composed of a minimum 15 linen sheets. See the linothorax thread for linen armor efectiveness.
Add now a pelta shield at least ot the front -mostly used to demonstrate the unit or army emblem.
2 heavily armed men would not be much problem to be in such a construction.
My question would be how do you protect the elefant-driver from missiles?
Most reconstrutions show him unarmored. Not correct in my opinion.
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Hello
I have reworked the previous illustration.
Here is the new version
http://community.imaginefx.com/fxpose/j ... ginal.aspx
The turret is made of a wood frame covered with leather and with shields on it.
I also believe the metal chains used in the previous version would be too uncomfortable to the animal, so I replaced them with leather.
This, of course is a personal interpretation.
Any comments on it would be helpful and welcomed.
Thanks
Best regards
JP Vieira
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Great picture, but isn't that turret rather high? I mean, are these men supposed to be standing up on the elephant's back, or are they supposed to be kneeling? This way, they present a much larger target, as well as a high point of gravity.
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how effective is that spear ? i know the elephant itself is effective but that spear should break after the first thrust on someone
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Hello
I always saw men fighting upright on elephants’ backs; this way, I believe there was more freedom of movement.
The long spear is seen in some representation but you raise a good point: how it was used effectively?
Thanks
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JP Vieira
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I read something that said Hellenistic war elephants wore metal anklets to protect against hamstringing - specifically against axes (ouch!). Forget the source. Anyone else confirm?
Michael D. Hafer [aka Mythos Ruler, aka eX | Vesper]
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Guess it is no big deal to have a spare pike.
And at least some one who bothered to give poor machut some protection.
Correct in my opinion.
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Quote:Hello
I have reworked the previous illustration.
Here is the new version
http://community.imaginefx.com/fxpose/j ... ginal.aspx
The turret is made of a wood frame covered with leather and with shields on it.
I also believe the metal chains used in the previous version would be too uncomfortable to the animal, so I replaced them with leather.
This, of course is a personal interpretation.
Any comments on it would be helpful and welcomed.
Thanks
Best regards
JP Vieira
I highly doubt that any leather was used to cover the outside. A very large amount of leather would be needed to cover the entire frame. Linen would be impractical, too, considering the cost and effort needed to weave 15 layers to cover all four sides of a howdah. It seems much, much more likely that a simple wooden turret was used.
There is a Hellenistic terracotta model, btw, that shows chains exactly like in your original illustration being used. The comfort of the animal was absolutely not a consideration.
Quote:how effective is that spear ? i know the elephant itself is effective but that spear should break after the first thrust on someone
Why would it break any more easily than any other sarissa?
Quote:I read something that said Hellenistic war elephants wore metal anklets to protect against hamstringing - specifically against axes (ouch!). Forget the source. Anyone else confirm?
There are a few terracotta figurines that seem to show some kind of hoops protecting the legs of elephants, but it's by no means clear. I don't think there's anything else other than that.
Quote:Guess it is no big deal to have a spare pike.
And at least some one who bothered to give poor machut some protection.
Correct in my opinion.
Of numerous depictions in art, the only kind of garment or protection other than a tunic or a cloak a mahout is shown with is a pilos cap. They are never shown carrying shields or wearing helmets. They presumably were afforded sufficient protection by the elephants' massive and hefty noggins.
Ruben
He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
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