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The Romans never were in the Netherlands!
#1
Salve,

i came across this one. Apparently we are wrong - the Romans never in the Netherlands, legio X never was here also.

site: www.noviomagus.info/

(mostly in dutch but he has a summary in English)
gr,
Jeroen Pelgrom
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I would rather have fire storms of atmospheres than this cruel descent from a thousand years of dreams.
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#2
Thank you!

*big honk*
Susanna

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.musica-romana.de">www.musica-romana.de

A Lyra is basically an instrument to accompaign pyromanic city destruction.
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#3
Delahaye, we will never get rid of him. I am glad my master Simon Wynia is no longer alive and doesn't have to see the resurrection of this theory. The Dutch, I often think, simply have no real sense for the past, and as a result, the weirdest theories have found publishers. It makes me so incredibly sad.

In the same category: Jesus was a terrorist, because he was a Messiah (Charles Vergeer, Een nameloze; the author has not read the scrolls of the Dead Sea and simply doesn't understand the complexities of messianism. Or: Thijs Voskuilen, who claims that Paul was a secret agent who changed the Christian terrorist organization into a peace-loving religion.

I can continue, but will not give more attention to the weird theories that have found publishers in the Netherlands. The universities don't do a thing. Mens sana qui mal y pense.
Jona Lendering
Relevance is the enemy of history
My website
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#4
Quote: Or: Thijs Voskuilen, who claims that Paul was a secret agent who changed the Christian terrorist organization into a peace-loving religion.

Hey! That is *my* theory! I wrote the essay to annoy my RE teacher.

Not only dis this guy *steal* it, he *believes* it? Confusedhock:
Der Kessel ist voll Bärks!

Volker Bach
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#5
Quote:
Jona Lendering:hr4a88rh Wrote:Or: Thijs Voskuilen, who claims that Paul was a secret agent who changed the Christian terrorist organization into a peace-loving religion.

Hey! That is *my* theory! I wrote the essay to annoy my RE teacher.

Not only dis this guy *steal* it, he *believes* it? Confusedhock:
More! More!! Tell us more!!!
Jona Lendering
Relevance is the enemy of history
My website
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#6
Quote:
Carlton Bach:3vtw7wp9 Wrote:Hey! That is *my* theory! I wrote the essay to annoy my RE teacher.

Not only dis this guy *steal* it, he *believes* it? Confusedhock:
More! More!! Tell us more!!!

Seriously? OK, anything to get me out of finishing this translation tonight. The gist of it goes like this:

BLASPHEMY WARNING

Once upon a time in unquiet Galilee, a preacher appeared who spread the message of borotherly love and pacifism among the notoriously fickle and dangerous Jews. The Romans approved of Jews being peaceful and forgiving, and giving unto Caesar what was his. In fact, they had sent him there for precisely that reason. Not that Jesus was an agent - he was a rabbi who genuinely believed what he preached - but he was a cherished PsyOps project run from Syria to reduce support for the resistance in Galilee. Peter, however, was his handler, a genuine legion plainclothes speculator.

After brief trial runs, the Romans engineered a meeting between their prophet and John the Baptist. Shortly after, John the Baptist disappeared into the dungions of the obliging Herod and the story was spread that he had recognised Jesus as the Messiah. His numerous followers were disunited and uncertain. A powerful messianic movemwent nipped in the bud - this investment had already paid off.

It got better. Jesus attracted thousands of followers as he travelled overland with a retinue of 'disciples', upright, respected Jews all (except Peter, natch). He fostered social acceptance for publicans, tax collectors, prostitutes, and other 'sinners' who were in close contact with the Romans, rendering collaboration more acceptable. Visiting their houses, he also met his contacts from the gubernatorial staff in Syria. Thousands of Galileans who could have followed a militant Messiah instead practiced pweace and brotherly love. Then it all fell apart.

Jesus, you recall, actually believed in his mission. He might not have fully understood the nature of his Roman support, but even if, he never saw himself as 'their man'. So one day he setz off to Jerusalem, to spread the message or die trying. Jerusalem was governed from Rome, by the thoroughly mediocre Pontius Pilate. He was, of course, not privy to the details of Syrian intelligenbce operations. Thus, the anti-Roman faction in the Synedrion seized its chance.

A follower of Jesus, a former sicarius named Judas, agreed to betray him and he was arrested after several days of very successful preaching and political activism. During the arrest, Peter managede to break away and followed a pre-arranged escape and evasion routine out of the city and north, to his contacts in the Decapolis. Jesus was brought before Pilate on trumped-up charges, and Pilate, bureaucrat that he was, immediately passed the buck to Herod Antipater. He was aware - broadly - that the Romans didn't want Jesus hurt, so he returned him to PIlate's custody with an 'innocent' verdict, on the assumption that he would contrive to free him. Imagine his horror when he heard that the man had been crucified! Of course, he immediately contacted the prefect to clear up the matter, but by now the damage was done.

pilate, at a loss what to do, arranged for one of his officiales to administer a strong anaesthetic to Jesus on the cross disguised as a drink of posca. The severely injured body was taken off the cross and spirited away, with the help of a few of hios followers. The same evening, equites singulares from Syria arrived with orders in no uncertain terms. Jesus was to be exfiltrated and the grave sealed up and secured. Unfortunately, some women disturbed the armoured troopers in the process (the shining men at the grave telling them he was not there). Peter returned the next day to take charge of the group and handle damage control.

The project was, of course, at an impasse. Attemptrs were made to retur Jesus as an unkillable 'returned Elijah', but eventually, the handlers in the Decapolis were convinced it was too dangerous and they took him to damascus to be placed in protective custody. Peter was left to try and run the body of followers as best he could and keep it out of the hands of James, a strongly fundamentalist influence now that his brother was gone.

Of course, the Synedrion was not idle all this time. They set one of their own hatchetmen. Saul, to destroy the remnants of the group in Judaea and elsewhere. Working the anger of the mob and the secret politics of synagogue councils, he was extremely successful at the job, even contriving to have Stephen, one of Peter's best men, killed, until the Romans resolved to put a stop to this. Travelling on the road to damascus, he was snatched, hooded, and brought into a secret porisonm where he was tortured and brainwashed. Confronted with Jesus, whome he knew to be dead, Saul was evetually turned. But he had cracked under the strain and developed a missionary complex. Convinced he was no longer a threat, the Romans let him go to make amends to the group as best he could.

After a few decades, tensions in Judaea came to a head and the Romans lost interest in their own pet religion. Peter went to Romwe and was made to disappear, pensioned off handsomely, while Paul eventually suffred martyrdom as a convenient scapegoat for an alleged terrorist attack. Nero did not care that the Chestianoi were 'his', he was happy to use them for his own purposes. THe converted pagans had nbever been part of the plan anyway. Around the sam time, the Jewish revolt erupted and the anti-Roman Synedrion faction finally had the opportunity to eliminate the Petrine group. They did so with extreme prejudice. As a result, the file on the matter was finally closed in Damascus as the last contacts either exfiltrated or fell victim to zealot daggers. Another intelligence operation had gone wrong.

Did I mention that I was a religious reader of John Le Carre back then?
Der Kessel ist voll Bärks!

Volker Bach
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#7
Ha, it could be a novel, not unlike Gore Vidal's Life from Golgotha. Unfortunately, books like these are believed to be non-fiction over here in Holland.

BTW, we all know that Jesus Christ was Julius Caesar, as Carotta tells us.
Jona Lendering
Relevance is the enemy of history
My website
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#8
Quote:Salve,
i came across this one. Apparently we are wrong - the Romans never in the Netherlands, legio X never was here also.

I had a very lengthy discussion with one of Delahaye's disciples about this very topic, and all the nonsense from that website was discussed. I then set my brother on to the guy (my brother can be a real bad dog when he's confronted with this), until the man gave up.

In short, they deny the Rhine was the modern Rhine, all of Roman Dutch and German history was in Belgium and France.

Sure, Nijmegen was not Noviomagus, but what the big legionary fortress did there he could not explain, as he could not explain why Noyon did not have the remains of a legionary fortress.

Etc, etc., etc.

A real good website is the one about Roman roads, where a former disciple of Delahaye has become critical of the man's hodgepodge approach to Roman itineraries.
http://www.brucop.com/millennium/nederlands/index.html
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#9
Volker, that is a SCREAM!! Gonna have to share it with my Legion this weekend. Of course, I'll have to wear my lightning rod, it is delightfully evil. I'm still giggling!

I don't think I can bring myself to read the Delahaye stuff, though I've seen wacky things like that before. Oh, well, at least we still have Romans in China, eh?

Valete,

Matthew
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
Legio XX, USA
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.larp.com/legioxx/">http://www.larp.com/legioxx/
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#10
It was sooo funny, it was a good training for my Dutch. Big Grin
Susanna

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.musica-romana.de">www.musica-romana.de

A Lyra is basically an instrument to accompaign pyromanic city destruction.
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