Conical Caligae Hobnails

[Matt Lukes]

Regrettibly it seems that the company I've been trying for so long to get to deal with me just isn't interested enough to even call me back despite claiming they want the order. After now 7 or 8 months of trying, countless calls requesting information (but never getting to talk to anyone in charge), and one measly set of samples months ago now, I've hit a wall. I've even been quite specific that I NEED to talk about this whatever the situation is even if it's just that I'll have to wait some more, but I got no call. So I'm working on other options and I'll post information as its available. It's not a total loss though people- one option may be good...

[Martin Moser]

Hi Matt,

thanks for lettingus know and even more thanks for all your efforts so far. Glad to hear you don't give it up!

[Flavius Promotus]

thanks for lettingus know and even more thanks for all your efforts so far. Glad to hear you don't give it up!

I second that. Thank you for all your efforts, Matt!

[Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs]

Thanks, Matt, for all your effort. I'm sorry it seems like a dead end.
I've only recently become aware that LePrevo sells hobnails that look,to me, fairly accurate. Would it be worthwhile to attempt a large combined order from them?

[Martin Moser]

Thanks, Matt, for all your effort. I'm sorry it seems like a dead end.
I've only recently become aware that LePrevo sells hobnails that look,to me, fairly accurate. Would it be worthwhile to attempt a large combined order from them?

FWIW, here's my take on LePrevo hobnails from personal experience when working with them:

The shaft could be longer and should be tapering right from the base, not only on the last few mm. As it is, it easily happens that the shaft bends at about any point (often close to the head) instead of right at the tip when hammered in on an anvil. For thicker soles not really a probloem, but then you are more likely to have them work lose in places in relative short time, since they aren't clenched over. Also they are cast, not forged, meaning that they are somewhat likely to break off somewhere at the shaft when hammered in directly on an anvil. This can be countered by using a piece of wood on the anvil at first and then clenching over the tips with careful hammering from the inside of the shoe. Of course this only works with relatively "open" shoes like caligae. OTOH, grinding the heads down to a true cone (tiresome work :-(

[Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs]

Thanks,Martin,for the comments/info.
( I was just looking at your thread on the Mainz calceus and dreaming)

[marsvigilia]

FWIW, here's my take on LePrevo hobnails from personal experience when working with them:

The shaft could be longer and should be tapering right from the base, not only on the last few mm. As it is, it easily happens that the shaft bends at about any point (often close to the head) instead of right at the tip when hammered in on an anvil. For thicker soles not really a probloem, but then you are more likely to have them work lose in places in relative short time, since they aren't clenched over. Also they are cast, not forged, meaning that they are somewhat likely to break off somewhere at the shaft when hammered in directly on an anvil. This can be countered by using a piece of wood on the anvil at first and then clenching over the tips with careful hammering from the inside of the shoe. Of course this only works with relatively "open" shoes like caligae. OTOH, grinding the heads down to a true cone (tiresome work :-( ( ) makes for a nice nail head IMHO.

Martin,
Nice cone head. I may try this, as I will need a new pair shortly.
A couple of questions:
Could the shaft be hammered down to a better angle?
Could the shaft be filed down to a better angle?

[Martin Moser]

A couple of questions:
Could the shaft be hammered down to a better angle?

We tried this, actually, hoping to get both longer and continously tapering shafts. A friend of mine who is a professional smith found that he had about 1/3rd wastage because the shaft broke off. This seems to be due to them being cast, not forged - different material qualities.

Could the shaft be filed down to a better angle?

Certainly, and if you plan on nailing closed shoes/boots I think I'd recommend taking the trouble and do so. With open shoes where the complete insole area is accessible like caligae e.g. the method I described above seems to work ok as well.

[Neuraleanus]

Here is a picture of the underside of one of my caliga using the Le Prevo hobnails:

[url:3c4uin7g]http://www.geocities.com/legio_tricesima_cohors_tres/campusMartis/MakingCaligae/caligaenailing.jpg[/url]

They're just pounded into the sole and they're staying in fine. I've worn these caligae to several events and there is no indication of looseness. Maybe the use of extra-hard sole leather may have something to do with it.

[Matt Lukes]

Well it was just this lack of authenticity and weakness (of LeProvo) that prompted me to search for an altnative- Roman hobnails were conical (except when worn), so the Le Provo are simply wrong, and I just didn't want to settle and still won't. DB Gurney, although I loathe to give them any business after the way they've handled this whole hobnail thing, does make (or rather stock, since I don't have any evidence that they produce a thing anymore) what they call Hungarian Nails, which are conical, just a bit shorter and smaller in diameter than their true hobnails. The size is 6mm dia, and about 3mm high, which falls at the small end of Roman nails, so should techincally be acceptable for patterns with lots of nails, but I still prefer the slightly larger ones and that's what I'm pushing to get made-and like I said, there's still at least one more possibility for success...

[gaiusseptimiuslucianus]

Matt,

Thanks for all your work on this. I know it must be incredibly aggravating to gone so far with this only to have it all fall though.

Forgive me if this avenue has already been tried, but are hobnails anything Deepeeka might tool up to make? Has anyone asked Gagan?

Laudes for all your effort!

Lucianus

[Matt Lukes]

Thanks Brother To be honest, I'd rather not go to Deepeeka- they've done enough- and my potential alternate source could be a better choice anyway...

[afmayer]

If a closed die can be made (not sure how as I have never tried), an oxygen/acetylene torch can heat up iron stock enough to forge the shape. I am trying to get info on making a die. Slamming iron in the die shouldn't be too bad or hard. If only I had a die!

Andy Mayer

[Matt Lukes]

Oh that's not an issue Andy it's the disparity between the size of the head and the size of the shank- there's so much material in the head, that forming the narrow shank from that much metal can be time consuming. Commercially for hundreds of years now, the technique has been to shear wedges from thick plate steel, the wide portion being forged into the head, the narrow tapering portion into the shank, but it takes a major industrial shear to cut those wedges. For us starting with single dimension stock, the delimna of large and small in the same final piece is a conundrum...

Or are you referring to altering the LeProvo nails because it's my understanding that the real major issue with them is that they're cast and thus weak compared to forged pieces...

[Neuraleanus]

Well it was just this lack of authenticity and weakness (of LeProvo) that prompted me to search for an altnative- Roman hobnails were conical (except when worn), so the Le Provo are simply wrong

Well the Le Prevo habnails are certainly better than the Tremont nails that most of us have previously used here in the USA.

Matt, if you ever get this going, I would still want a couple of pounds for my next pair of caligae.